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BswiftNmerciful There's been a lot of hype about Gracie Ju-Jitsu for the past couple decades and UFC becoming the new standard by which to judge an art. How would it make all the Brazillian Ju Jitsu guys feel if they realized it was really just another style of Judo?

What is Judo? How is it diferent from it's ancestor art?

Please read this article. It's very enlightening!


JUDO HISTORY by M. Tripp

Before I begin; lets understand the ground rules. Disagree if you wish; but you are going to have to do it with facts not emotion. You will have to back up your statements with historical facts.

The history of BJJ/GJJ is a cloudy one; made so by people who wish to "sell" it. Miscalling people like Maeda and Kimura jujutsu people is a glaring example of this. To this end; we are going to have to define once and for all what jujutsu is; and what judo is. Subsets are not really the issue.

In terms of what came from Japan, and then became BJJ/GJJ; EITHER it is jujutsu or judo. There is NO middle ground here. Jujutsu (jiujitsu or jujitsu are incorrect spellings; Check out Secrets of unlocking Aikijujutsu for full chapter and verse on this); was a traditional Bujutsu ryu-ha of old Japan. As a traditional ryu-ha; it was taught and practiced in a certain way.

Dragger spells this out plainly in his works on Bujutsu both old and modern; to wit 1. No Belt Ranks 2. No sparring, only kata and one steps 3. Training for the Battlefield only I could post more but you get the point. ALL traditional bujutsus were about killing someone in the course of defending or storming a castle, or fighting a large-scale battle.

In the case of Jujutsu it was about getting free to kill someone. The skills of grappling in armour with a tanto; getting your arms free to draw a sword, etc., THIS is the basis for the traditional ryu-ha's of Jujutsu. Now; BUDO unlike Bujutsu, was always about the person, not the group. The change from bujutsu wasn't about "watering down" techniques; but rather changing them to apply to the new world they lived in. People were not wearing swords; or storming and defending castles anymore. The focus of the training had to change with the times.

Now; for this first part; the ONLY thing we are going to ask is "Is BJJ/GJJ a traditional Bujutsu ryu-ha".

Well, lets look: 1. Belt Ranks - Yes 2. Katas & One Steps - No 3. Battlefield training - No (a one on one duel is not the battlefield.) Again, if you want to debate this, you are going to have to do two things; disprove Draeger, AND tell me the NAME of the traditional jujutsu ryu-ha BJJ/GJJ claims to come from. There is a question for any Gracie to answer, if you want to use them for your quote and history source. CLEARLY; even the Gracies admit that Maeda was the one who brought them "jiujitsu" as they call it. I will get to him in the course of this history class. But for now; the point is, BJJ/GJJ is NOT Bujutsu and then cannot possibly be jujutsu, as defined by Japan's history. Next; lets see what "jujutsu" evolved into. Class dismissed.

Jigoro Kano was from a well to do family and an educator. He saw several problems with the old style training that he knew had to change. Brutal treatment of students and the lack of a systematic training method being high on his list. Also, he saw Budo as something beyond fighting. He felt that we should grow from the experience (the playing fields of Eaton and all that). So Kano created a "new" way to teach and train in the old Bujutsu. I put new in quotes because how much of this was his idea and how much of this he "improved" from other sources is subject to much debate.

But; in 1882 he opened his first school with the following training methods in place:

1. A belt system to show the difference between beginning, intermediate, and advanced students. 2. A "lesson plan" that taught the basic skills then built on them to advanced skills. 3. Katas to preserve tradition. 4. Randori and Shiai as the new "battlefield" to test your techniques.

Now; much has been said over the years that Kano wanted to create a safe "sport" rather than a combat art. This is simply not so and ignores dozens of written works by Kano that refute it. What he wanted was a "sporting" attitude in Judo. That is not the same thing. Example, I am rolling with a player and he gets the choke, I tap, he lets go. THAT is sporting. I tap, he doesn't let go, that is NOT sporting. If he cranks on a joint lock and I have no chance to submit, THAT, is not sporting.

There is the "sport" Kano wanted to create. He knew you couldn't allow strikes in Randori/Shiai as people would get seriously injured. But there was more to it than that. Kano knew by then that so called "deadly" techniques (for an unarmed fighter) were mostly myth and impossible to master the way "sporting" techniques could be. How you you master an eye gouge? Look how well you can master the throw into the arm lock. This was Kano's point.

Also, Kano wanted to keep the "life and death" aspect of the old Samauri tradition in the matches. The problem is, killing students tends to decrease the student body. So the "death" became a symbolic one, submission! The ONLY way you could win a match in Kano's Judo was to tap out or get knocked out by a throw. Both of these areas held real Budo lessons that Kano wanted taught. "9 times thrown, 10 times rise," taught that you must keep getting up when life knocks you down. The submission aspect was the "death", by tapping I agreed you "killed" me. This was still a death to the ego (and the reason so many people have a problem with submission fighting); and Kano felt learning how to deal with, and overcome this death would build strong character; and better people.

Finally Kano changed the name of what he was doing from Jujutsu to Judo, to show this difference in training methods. NUMEROUS Jujutsu masters of the old ryu-ha came and joined him in this new concept. They began to share and exchange techniques under these new training methods, and for 4 years their skills grew. This is important because in 1886, we have the first UFC test for Kano's school. But that is the next lesson... OK; we understand now what a true Bujutsu ryu-ha is. And we are now at the point where the change is happening from Bujutsu (battlefield arts) to Budo (personal arts).

As far as major techniques go; the real difference here is lack of weapons. On the battlefield you have several; in personal life, you have none. The very term "martial art" is flawed as there has never been a war where the Judo army charged the hill held by the Tae Kwon Do army. What "war" was fought with what we think of as "martial arts". That term should be reserved for true battlefield arts with weapons. I say this to explain the problem people had with changing the systems from Bujutsu to Budo. Simply put; you can't train unarmed fighters the same way you train people with weapons. Think about it; with a sword; kata works because really if I draw my sword faster than you and get the first cut in; there isn't much else to worry about. Same could be said for gun fighting in many ways. If someone had a new idea; well, there were plenty of wars and duels to the death to see if this guy was full of crap or not. Only the living taught the classes. But unarmed skills were not that clear. How do you fight unarmed? What skills are needed? How do you train? What is effective in a fight like this and what is the best way to gain those skills? These were the questions people were trying to answer with the "new" manner of teaching the "old" ryu-ha. Training was brutal; people were seriously injured; and brawling in the streets was common to test the fighter's skills. Clearly this wasn't going to work well, or for very long.

In fact these brawls are why ALL jujutsu masters began to get a very bad reputation. This as about to change as a young man named Kano had been training in jujutsu; and after seeing what people were trying to do; he had a plan of his own... NOTE: I am going to make a promise here. If people will wait until history thread is over; and honestly and objectively think about it; even the BJJ/GJJ folks are going to say in essence "yep; this is correct and in truth we were wrong about what we thought he was saying." Lets see if they do! The events changing Jujutsu to Judo were not only at the Kodokan (Kano's home for Judo). Remember all those changed ryu-ha's with the brawling members? Other schools were attempting to make the change from Bujutsu to Budo. To say there was great rivalry between these schools was an understatement.

The tradition in Japan was that ANYONE could walk into a school and challenge the top student; if you beat him you could challenge the head master. If you beat him you could take their dojo sign down. (Notice Bruce Lee does this in one of his movies; Chinese Connection) Kano did not like this kind of thing and never sent people out to do so. However tradition was tradition and he knew people would be coming to the Kodokan. He ALWAYS made sure there was a student there who could handle anyone "dropping by". They never lost those matches and many people became students because of this. About 1886; the Tokyo Police department wanted to set up a program in "modern" (a relative term for us in 2000, but not to them in 1886) combatives for their officers. The question was, which unarmed ryu should they be taught. Several presentations were made; and they decided to hold an event to see which of the various styles were more effective. The rules were simple; one-hour time limit; you either had to tap out, quit, or your seconds throw in the towel (I have a translated release form for this event). Other than that it was anything goes.

Kano put himself above all other styles and insisted his "Judo" be tested against every other style that day. Every match would have a Kano's fighter in it. The number of these matches is unclear. (THE FOLLOWING IS OPINION) I have been told my real inside Kodokan people is the reason you get different numbers is not because Judo lost any of those matches (Fact: they did not); but that some people they fought were seriously injured or died and that really flew in the face of Kano's idea for "Budo". If you think about the level of fighter, and the techniques allowed; it isn't hard to see this is quite possible. But it doesn't matter if there were 10; 12; or 15 fights that day, History shows us that Judo defeated all comers (with one draw, but more on that next time...) and was chosen by Tokyo Police as the unarmed combat method for their Officers. Like it or not; (and some people are not going to like it); on that day Jujutsu as a living active martial art ended. Yes, there are a few styles in Japan keeping their old traditions alive. Just like some people in this country go into the woods and play "Civil War" for a few weeks every year. These are not living, changing, adapting systems; but people who enjoy playing Samurai. Nothing wrong with that; but don't try and sell it as a modern effective system. We don't wear swords anymore.

Judo became the prominate Japanese martial art, and it's first Budo.

The only question was, what would happen when others adopted its training methods... I'll answer it next time, as we talk about that draw...

Well, things sure look great for the Kodokan! Teaching all over the place; won the 1886 event; sounds great right?

Well, there was another "UFC" match that the judo folks REALLY don't like to talk about. It was in 1888. More on that in a moment.

Judo at this time was a slamming art with some strikes and pins. The art of submission was VERY limited, as most old style Jujutsu or modern judo people had little need for submission in the real world. Kano taught four kinds of throws in Kodokan Judo, sport throws (to win events) "building throws" (a throw that teaches you a movement you will use in a later advanced throw i.e. uki goshi/harai goshi); gymnastic throws (simply there because Kano felt the rolling and tumbling was good for you); combat throws (miscalled; these throws were safe ways to practice serious combat throws i.e. hiza guruma).

To see the truth in the above; notice that only about 10 throws from the go kyo no waza are used to score ippon in judo shiai's! Worse; there are VERY few people any more who know which throws were which. This is why I tell people to focus on those 10 and leave the others alone. At this time, another jujutsu ryu-ha saw the need to change their training methods and they too joined the Kodokan and began using the Judo training methods. This school after watching many randori and shiai sessions at the Kodokan made a simple observation; it was VERY hard to slam someone until they quit. Moreover, it was painful too!

They looked at the rules of the 1886 Tokyo Police Challenge and took it upon themselves to come up with a better way to win such a match (remember that one hour time limit).

Now (all BJJ/GJJ folks pay attention); I want you to read carefully how they trained (BTW: Osaekomi by Kashiwazaki pages 14 & 15 contains this information and more): 1. First to avoid losing and cause a draw. 2. To defeat the defence of a person playing for the draw and go for the win. Submission was key to these people! They found that "dojime" or "trunk squeezing" could keep a person at bay as they looked for a submission (read dojime as guard folks).

They would NOT submit; it was dishonour to them to do so (hmmmm... sound familiar?). I leave you to the source for more of this material. But I think you get the point. They attended the Kodokan Shiai event in 1888 with a team of 10 men; ten men who would fight the top ten men of the Kodokan.... Ten matches; ten submissions; no draws! O U C H! Kano at that point saw that if his ideal of "balance" were true (and it was/is) then Ne-waza would have to be of equal importance to the Kodokan as Tachi-waza.

The submissions fighters were given a High School to not only teach at but perfect new and varied submissions such as sankaku-jime and new kansetsu waza. This continues to this day and is where the term "Kosen Judo" comes from. From that point, and up until 1920 Judo grew to the ends of the world with equal importance on throws and submissions. Kano even brought an Okinawan karate master to the Kodokan seven times to teach advanced striking methods (this is how Funakoshi came to move to Japan and set up the Shotokan karate dojo). The challenges to the Kodokan pretty much ended. There were many people such as Kimura and Maeda who travelled all over the world fighting and defeating all comers with the Judo they mastered from the various specialists at the Kodokan.

When next we talk we will speak of the changes made in 1925; the death of Kano; Judo as Sport; and the Olympic games. Till then; I hope you are enjoying this as much as I am!

"A camel is a horse that was designed by a comittie"

Well, time for the problem of all groups to begin to occur... Kodokan Judo is a very big thing.

When you look at it, it can be sport; self-defense; police training; traditional martial art; exercise; Budo; etc. Or any and all of the above. People coming to the Kodokan were there for different reasons. Each person tended to work on what best suited those reasons. More often than not; they forgot the basic lesson of Judo, ballance.

This caused MAJOR internal strife and battles (throws vs submissions; combat vs sport; etc) Kano began banning various techniques due to injury (BTW: I now have historical evidence that people were killed in the Tokyo Police challenge matches). Some people liked these changes; others did not. People left over this. Kano also had to remove members for brawling. This pained him; but his school was the training school for the police; he had no choice. Kimura is an example of this. (People say Medea or Count Koma as well, but I can find no evidence of this). Still, People from all over the world came to him to seek out his teaching methods.

W.E Fairbairn trained and got a 2nd degree black belt from him! Also one of the "big three" of Sambo did the same. These men, and many others; didn't leave so much with techniques; but with training concepts that they would carry on to their own programs.

However; the greatest change was outside of the Kodokan; upon Japan itself. Let's just say that Japan had plans and wanted all aspects of its Country to be in step with them. (See "Blood on the Sun" with James Cagney, who BTW, was another Kodokan Black Belt!) The decision was made to turn the Kodokan into a military academy.

The only problem was; Kano objected to this. He felt that there was no place for "war" inside of the Kodokan. It was a direct violation of Judo. Obviously this did not please the government of Japan. Then, oddly, on his way back from Egypt from a meeting with the IOC about making Judo an Olympic sport; Dr. Kano died from "food posioning". A few weeks later; the Kodokan was indeed, a military academy. If you think the connection is too vague (or not possible); may I suggest you read the book "Unit 731" or "The Rape of Nanking". I suggest the former (731); but I WARN you; it is not for the weak of heart or stomich. Next lesson; WWII; Combat realities; Japan loses the war; and the fate of the Kodokan.

The War is on; and people everywhere are learning Judo (books are sold through the mail such as "Lighting Judo" "Combat Judo" Super Judo made easy" etc.). All showing how anyone could become an unbeatable fighter in 10 easy lessons. But a simple truth was forming at Army Camps, OSS training centers, and the battlefield itself. This was that a good big man will beat a good little man. These battles taught the world that there was nothing mysterious about Judo; it was simply the science of wrestling with some methods that people were unfamiliar with.

Once they understood those methods; the Judo people had a much harder time defeating people. In fact; wrestlers were begining to defeat many Judo "champions" (hard to say; Kimura went undefeated, however there were others who lost) as they began to understand how they were going to fight. However, it needs to be pointed out that almost EVERYONE in the fight game; was taking something from the Kodokan to add to their methods. This is an amazing thing when you understand how far and wide that was.

Now the war is over; and Japan is a conquered country. General MacArthur is now running things; and he makes a decree that will change Judo for the rest of its history. ALL military arts were banned in Post-War Japan. The Kodokan was closed because it was a military academy! (Kano warned them!) After many meetings; it was agreed that the Kodokan could re-open ONLY if it taught sport judo, and only sport judo, with the goal of it becoming an olympic sport. There my friends is the smoking gun; and it is in the hands of MacArthur! It was NOT Kano who wanted Judo to become a mear sport; but General MacArthur! For almost twenty years; Sport Judo would be the only focus of the Kodokan, under the direction of the Americian Forces there. It would be "Judo" experts in other parts of the world that would have to move the ball for the next several years. Next lesson; I will discuss the most notable of these; Madea, the Gracie's; and Brazilian Judo... or as they call it Brazilian Jiujitsu!

Lets get this done now; BJJ/GJJ is not a version of jujutsu. It simply can not be. It connects to NO battlefield bujutsu ryu-ha; there is no "linage" of its creation other than to Judo masters. More over; I challenge you to take a look at the Gracie In Action vol 1; and watch the first match. Look at Helio; look at the grips; the techniques. CLEARLY this is Judo! Not the Olympic Judo of today; but the orginal fight until a person quits or submitts Judo!

Madea was a Kodokan Judo master who made his living as a prize fighter. But there were NO Jujutsu championships of ANY kind after 1886. Kimura was another Kodokan Judo master who made his living as a prize fighter; again, this was NOT a world Jujutsu champion as there was NO world jujutsu championship to win. BOTH these men were highly trained and knew and understood Judo in all its aspects. (Opinion follows);

I clearly see by what the Gracies are doing today that Madea had some connection to the Kosen Judo program. I say this from the most objective source there is; watching Royce Gracie! Lets take a look at a quote from Kashiawki's book "Osaekomi": "At this time newaza was extreemly popular and well researched, particularly by the Kosen Judo students. This was because Kosen Judo was an inter-school (Note by me: this means public schools not dojo's) team contest only, so there was the posibility to draw. This was a time of only one score IPPON or a draw. Most of the students participating were beginners, so in a very short time they had to develop players who could compete. For this reason newaza training was very useful. It was easer to get draws in newaza so they researched turtle positions, double leg locks (NBM: read that guard positions), and so on extensively.

At first they prasticed in order to achieve a draw., then to overcome the defensive positions and achieve a win. They became very proficient at these simple, direct, but effective tasks..." Then: "The Kosen Judo students were the elite of the time; they fought for the school, the judo club, and their team.

Even if they were strangled, or if their arms were broken they didn't quit - they refused to give in or say maitta (I quit)! This was the background of the Kosen students - fighting for their country and their school." Sound like any group of people you know?

Look at Royce's last two NHB fights. BOTH of them he used the basic Kosen skill of defense to prevent his opponent from doing ANYTHING to put him in danger of losing. While others find this "cheating" (or whatever else they are saying); when placed in the context of the Kosen Judo roots of their style; it is not only acceptable; but a true skill! How many times have you heard BJJ/GJJ people say about those matches "Well, why didn;t they pass Royces guard?". Again, this is a Kosen remark from the second part of their training, learning how to defeat the defensive fighter. It is perfectly normal for them to feel this way.

In fact, truth be told; todays BJJ/GJJ players have a more direct route to Kano than the current crop of "Sport Judo" fighters! Current Judo people have ONLY seen what the IJF rules say Judo is, and that AFTER the MacArthur ban (something Brazil didn't have to deal with). Now; like ANY country that has taken Judo home with it; the BJJ/GJJ people have focused on a certin aspect and improved upon those aspects. Clearly the top BJJ/GJJ fighters are at the top of the world with their Newaza skills.

I for one would LOVE to see a Kosen School vs BJJ/GJJ school event! So, and this is the central issue; why call it "Jiujitsu" when clearly this is just their way to do Judo? Well, we could say the same to Wally Jay; John Saylor; and numerous others who are really doing a version of Judo by training method and technique. Why not call it Judo? You'll have to wait until next time to find out!

am going to make a jump here. Moving to the late 60's early 70's era. Prior to this there were many Judo schools with full and ballanced programs. I want to talk about the two things that have brought us to where we are today.

First; it became commom prastice to give high judo ranks to people soly on the basis of tourniment wins. The problem with this is very simple; A young man, who has a strong game, good ballance and one hot throw is going to "retire" from fighting around 4th or 5th dan this way. Years latter he will be an 8th dan; running judo in America, YET, he has no real in depth knowledge of Judo. Worse, he may not even be able to teach you how to do what he did; players are not always great coaches and vice versa. Sooner or later; you are going to have people with only a brown belt knowledge of Judo; running the show.

Second; here in the US; the SOLE goal of almost 90% of ALL judo clubs; is to train people to win olympic gold medals. ANYTHING else is of minor importance. I submit to you that if that is your only goal; you are NOT going to have a successful commercial club (only because you are not going to be giving the paying customer what they are looking for). Most people walking into your door are not trying to win an olympic medal! This "paradyme" shift really turned Judo upside down in many ways. It created political problems, bitter arguements; some terrible backstage actions; and on and on. Now; ask yourself a central question. Was Wally Jay a Judo-ka? He says so, and I've seen him work many times and of course he is. How about Gene LeBell? John Saylor? OK; here is the question; why do these people have NOTHING to do with Judo in this counrty any more? You would think; when you see how much Gene did; he'd be on a board of directors somewhere!!!! But then again; it is hard to do that and fool people that you have a true in depth knowledge of Judo. These men simply walked away when they saw where Judo was going; and that they were powerless to stop it. To avoid confusion; the word "jujitsu" began popping up again. Clearly these were not battlefield ryu-ha; just men doing judo the way they thought it should be done; but with out the politicts; power struggles; and single minded focus of the current US Judo world.

I could fill these pages just with the back door bs that was pulled on my school by the "powers that be". But let me make it real clear..

Michigan Judo has a web site; WHY is there nothing there about the Konan Shiai at MSU next Sunday? My Uncle has had the same school and location for 20 years; why no fliers? There are several BJJ/GJJ schools that have gone to these events; they haven't been told either. One would think that people would want a large turn out for an event like this; why only contact a selected few? This is the major reason I am working through the AAU about holding Kosen Judo events. But more of that in another post.

But lets just say a prayer of thanks to Wally Jay, Gene Lebell, John Saylor, and yes; every Gracie from Helio on down, across, and every other way their family tree goes... THEY are the ones keeping the real Judo alive!

(This is how it was when I was there; I do not know about current Police work in Japan) The history of Judo being taught to Police goes all the way back to the 1886 Tokyo Police challenge matches. This tradition went all over the world.

In Japan; police take their training VERY seriously. You MUST train either before or after your shift; and there is at least a 6th dan there at all times to supervise those classes. Earning rank; and winning matches at the Police events is a MUST for promotions. The Detroit Judo club; in its heyday; was the training center for the Detroit Police Department. In fact; in those days the DPD had their own team and PAL program for city youth. However; it must be noted that the changes from Kodokan Judo to Olympic Judo did not sit well with the Police! In the mid-sixties; there was a definate "break" from Kodokan tradition at the Police Academy. This came from too many officers being stabed when "grabbing" a suspect in the now standard Judo manner (lapel and sleeve). Japan is a knife culture and this is a grave error. This is NOT to say that the Tokyo Police do not train in Olympic Judo; in fact; theirs is one of the top places Olympic Players train! But they saw the need to "keep it real" as it were.

They created a set of techniques called "Renkoho" or "arresting techniques"; and created randori sessions to drill these. They took the Kosen idea that throwing a person face down was a better combat idea than throwing him face up; same for pinning him. When you add the concept of a hidden weapon to the match; you see the reason for this. In Randori sessions; it was NOT uncommon for a person to have a hidden weapon; and bring it into play at a moment of error or distaction. This would keep you on your toes. Taking Kano's idea of a "striking" randori forward; they created the first idea of a "padded" attacker. The defender was NEVER padded; and in MANY cases was injured in this training! The "armor" was modified Kendo Armor and is now of course used by many karate programs around the world.

The Atemi-waza was brought back (sometimes now called Nihon-Kempo); and with the armor could be used full power. The kendo shinai was modified to be the size of their telescoping baton; and this was drilled at well. Finally this was codified into a system called "Taiho-jutsu" or sometimes "Keijutsukai". NOW; listen! This does NOT mean that their core Judo skills were ignored; far from it. But what they felt was that a good Judo man would be better able to apply the Taiho-jutsu skills BECAUSE of his Judo training.

I was VERY fortunate to have trained with Frank Aul; who was a DPD officer for many years, and a very strong Judoka as well. He taught me the Police Randori methods (and for those of you in this area; drilled them with Mark Scott for two solid years). More so when I had a chance to go to Japan in 1975 and train at the Tokyo Police school as a guest (thank all of you for not killing me). Clearly; this is a VITAL approach to Judo; and yes; if I ever get the idea that someone wants a real video course in Judo; this will be on it. But to close; I remember being on Okinawa in a bar with at least 50 drunken service men; ONE japanese police officer walked into the bar. EVERYONE got quiet, and respectful, the second that he did.

Nuff said... Revisionist History Let us begin with a simple quote that will set the stage for our discussion today: "Prior to the end of WWII, Judo in Japan rose to an all time high of technical perfection. Although exponents looked forward to competition, the real purpose of all training was seishin tanren, or spiritual forging.

The prohibition against carrying on martial arts and ways declared by SCAP in 1945 included Judo and resulted in its technical stagnation. When Judo was finally reinstated in 1947; Kano Risei; adopted son of Kano Jigoro and third president of the Kodokan, made resolute efforts to rebuild the technical integrity of Japan's Judo under the aegis of the Kodokan. He organized the Zen Nippon Judo Remmi (All Japan Judo Federation) in 1949 and assumed leadership over the administrative and technical aspects of Judo.

Although aware of the cultural values of Kodokan Judo, Kano Risei's policies nevertheless placed emphasis on Judo as a competitive sport. This emphasis began with the organization of the first truly national Japanese Judo championships in 1948. Judo in Japan today is primarily a sport, much to the dissatisfaction of many traditionalists who view Judo as a Japanese cultural activity.

Nevertheless, the way all judo training is conducted today continues to be one in which experts for World and Olympic competitions are formed." (Donn F. Draeger; Modern Budo and Bujutsu Vol 3; Page 123) Now lets add a few other facts to the above. The very first World Judo Championships were held in Tokyo, Japan on May 3, 1956. There were no weight classes and Anton Geesink took third place. Five years later; at the third World Championship; he would be the first non-Japanese to win the Gold medal.

The very first European Championships were held in Paris in 1951. With the interesting division of not weight; but rank! Brown belt; then 1st; 2nd; 3rd dans (each with their own division), and finally an open division. The Kano Cup came along in 1978; the Fukuoka Cup in 1983; and the Tournoi De Paris in 1971. With all of the information above firmly in our minds; let us now revisit the notion that Kano created Judo to be a sport. If this were so; why wait sixty-six years to have a true national championship? Or Seventy-five years to have a world championship?

More interesting; why were there no such things until AFTER Jigoro Kano's death? Clearly when we read Draeger the answer is plain; Judo was NOT a sport until the reopening of the Kodokan in 1947. What is also clear is that Risei Kano's sole goal was to promote Judo as a modern sport. To prove this all we have to do is read quotes about Judo prior to 1947; then again after 1947.

Let's look at a quote from the Sport of Judo by Kobayashi and Sharp to see that point: "Although Judo is based on the martial arts of Japan (Bujutsu), judo men (judoka) practice it only as a sport to be played against other Judo men. It's application for self-defense is rarely taught in Judo schools. Formerly a part of the curriculum of all Japanese police academies, general hand to hand tactics has been discontinued, except for, special problems in handling mob violence." Interesting; but how do you square that with Jigoro Kano's own words printed in the Budokwai Bulletin, April 1947: "I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and possibility of judo being introduced with other games and sports at the Olympic Games.

My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If it be the desire of other member countries, I have no objection. But I do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, Judo in reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural attainment. Only one of the forms of Judo training, so-called Randori or free practice can be classified as a form of sport. Certainly, to some extent, the same may be said of boxing and fencing, but today they are practiced and conducted as sports." Note the date; and remember Draeger said not everyone liked the change to pure sport. Do you think this interview was printed to make a point about the new direction for Judo? But lets take this to the finish line!

In front of me I have a book called "Modern Judo" by Charles Yerkow. Its copyright is 1942. Let's read from its preface: "The fault of most books purposing to teach judo is either too much text poorly illustrated or too many pictures poorly explained. One book deals painstakingly with every major trick of self-defense and simple attack, yet entirely neglects such important phases as throwing and mat fighting, and give no hint even of basic principles and techniques. Another contains a great variety of tricks and breaks used in mat-fighting, most of them too complicated for the average student of judo.

One of the best books...also contains a number of major throws and locks...However this book fails to show how these tricks can be used for simple attack or self-defense."

Hmmmm...Lets look at what is in this book shall we?

Introduction; Breaking the Falls (Ukemi); Judo Principles and the art of throwing (Kuzushi and De ashi Barai; a drop tai otoshi; Yoko Otoshi blocking the ankle, O soto gari; Ko Soto gari; Hiza Guruma; Tsurikomi Goshi; Harai goshi; Hane Goshi; O Guruma; Tomoe Nage; Ippon Seoi Nage; Morote Seoi Nage; Soto Makikomi; Kami Basami (interesting version from the "gracie get up" position) and Kata Guruma);

Fundamentals of mat fighting (Kesa, Kami shiho, and Mune Gatame; cross choke from the guard and the mount; sliding choke from the mount; interesting single lapel choke from the rear guard; hadaka jime bar and CVR from the rear; leg scissors choke (not a triangle but a neck scissors);

Top wrist lock from the mount; spinning cross body arm lock from the mount (yep the one on all the BJJ tapes!) Bent arm lock out of kesa gatame; straight ankle lock; defense for same; defense for the defense by turning from over into a rear bent leg lock; passing the guard; cross body arm lock from the guard; leg lock from a throw; reverse into mat work from being thrown), Individually Developed Technique (interesting chapter on creating "your" judo attacks),

Simple attacks and Nerve Centers (spin turn into rear choke; push down into front guillotine; side headlock choke; wrist lock come-along; hammerlock come-along; straight arm lock come-along; handshake wrist lock; outside wrist lock; outside wrist spinner; inside arm spinner into hammerlock; lapel and groin pull takedown; arm between legs come along; block arms into O goshi;

Atemi-waza with numerous strikes and nerve grips)

The science of self-defense (numerous Judo defenses from attacks of all types including weapons), Body development exercises (looks like yoga, interesting). BTW this is only Vol 1 of a three-volume set. I only have the one but am working on getting the other two. Now; if anyone wants to say that Judo after 1947 is the same as what you just read above, I have a question; where are the modern Judo texts teaching it?

Reread the contents of "modern judo' then read Kobauashi's quote again. Clearly something is amiss. Of course there is, and its called revisionist history. This should not be a new concept to most of you; you can see it every day in dozens of examples.

In this case Risei Kano had to create a new direction for Judo to get the Kodokan reopened. He did this and everyone got in line behind it..well, most people did. Fortunately for us we have people like the Gracies who didn't make those changes and by studying their methods we can see what Judo was like before it was changed.

Not to leave anyone out the same can be said for Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, and many others you have never heard of like Ernie Cates. In closing, it is not my intent to anger, but to educate. I am not here to flame but to instruct. I was able to absorb these facts by keeping an open mind. I would hope all of you could do the same.

Well, after the dust has now settled; we can see that after 1947 the Kodokan had changed into a sporting academy to spread the new "Sport of Judo" to the world. It would take a while but in time this would indeed be the way judo was practiced in every corner of the globe. In my humble opinion; when this happened, it ushered in the Karate fad, and ended the Judo one. This of course was very bad, as it would take almost 30 years to pass before the Gracies would arrive and show everyone that Kano was right in the first place. For us to learn where we need to go; we need to understand where we are.

So let me ask some very hard questions; and lets be honest in the answers!

1. Of the number of people who walk into a commercial dojo; how many of them want to train in an Olympic sport to earn a medal? (This is the focus of USA Judo and has been for over 30 years).

2. Of the number of people who walk into a commercial dojo; how many of them want to learn effective, practical self-defense? (Which has not been the focus of the Kodokan from 1947 to present?)

3. Of the number of people who walk into a commercial dojo; how many of them will actually be able to apply Judo to someone bigger, stronger, or armed? (I remember yawara sticks and canes being taught in Judo classes; I have old books from 1942 where these techniques are taught in detail).

4. In approx. 1985; when a national health mag listed Judo Randori as the second most effective aerobic exercise in the world, second only to swimming; what did the judo people in America do with that information? (can you say tae-bo boys and girls?).

Before it is asked; look up Seikyoku-Zen'yo Kokumin-Taiiku sometime and you will see Kano had Tae-Bo before Billy Blanks ever did! I can go on but you get the point. I won't even bother to speak to silly political fights and the like.

Now, I want you to ask the questions again but use the words BJJ/GJJ and you will clearly see that Rorion Gracie understood one very simple fact; people walking in the door were there for YOU to serve them; not for THEM to serve you or your traditions. He made a few bucks by understanding that too. Too bad most people can't see that, especially those locked into "Judo is a sport" thinking."


M. Tripp is a 6th Dan in Kodokan Judo and a 9th in Ju jitsu. This article has been published under other than honorable conditions in the past without credit to the original author. But not by me!
He is also known as "JudoCoach" on other (AOL) forums.

"While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the
doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place".
.....T. Shidachi, 1892


Ray...

Ms J Dont they already know that its a evolution of judo? I am sure that I have read a number of times in different accounts by different writers that it was so.

i have trained in both Judo, and Brazilian jujitsu off and on during my life and then consistently over the past 6 years on a semi regular bases, and apparently I even hold a blackbelt in JUDO. Only reason I started training in judo though was to learn more non violent control and restraint techniques that could be offered to people in fields that had to have things to use for non lethal training and was accepted by the US government as a standard for them based on the laws.

However to be honest out of all the judo based evolved arts I have trained or ranked in over the years, the one i liked the most was Aki Jujitsu better then either of the other 2 mostly because i knew the other two as well and i like the really tight small circle locks that you get with aki jujitsu that you dont get with judo or Brazilian jujitsu, however i believe based on my poor memory that even aki jujitsu is an evolution off of judo.

However, many long term arts have incorporated judo techniques and training into there arts and have evolved into new arts from that bases, even the fma has escrido and that again is just another addition of judo to that art. I just was surprised by your letter because well I thought everyone knew that though and were taught it in there class formats wile learning there evolved judo arts. shrug ok sometimes I am naive……J

Judo and that base of the art is good for people that can only use control and restraint and cant go full out and do what it takes to stop the aggression, i.e. police and security teams, mental hospital staff and other jobs. However it’s a long long term art that has to be trained and tested over and over to be sure that the techniques are used correctly and it has to be understood as well that if you cant control and restrain with it you have to have reality based training to back it if you get into trouble.

Johnaleen bows deeply

" Deadly, Silent, Ferial when Cornered"

psdtc
quote:

M. Tripp is a 6th Dan in Kodokan Judo and a 9th in Ju jitsu. This article has been published under other than honorable conditions in the past without credit to the original author. But not by me!
He is also known as "JudoCoach" on other (AOL) forums.

"While the old form, jujutsu, was studied solely for fighting purposes, Kano's new system is found to promote the mental as well as the physical faculties. While the old schools taught nothing but practice, the modern Judo gives the theoretical explanation of the
doctrine, at the same time giving the practical a no less important place".
.....T. Shidachi, 1892


Ray...



Ray...that was a very interesting piece of history! Some of which I never realized. I did notice Judo to be a fantastic martial art. I went full bore with Judo for about 7 years due to all the variations of take downs to add to my collection. One of the instructors I had the privelge to work with was sensie George Mehdi from Brazil. (I think I mentioned that somewhere in this forum elsewhere) He is an older gentleman who has been involved with Judo back when it wasn't watered down from olympic rules. He showed us leglocks, elbowing, kneeing, etc., techniques that most Judo teachers don't have in their corriculum. And I found that to be rather interesting. That alone, I felt was a peice of history by being able to train with a teacher who can show this type of stuff. My teacher, who is Brazilian and teaches Judo and Jiu Jitsu...John Pereirra, was the one who brought him in a few times for a seminar. I brought about 15 of my students to the seminar, we were all dressed in black and not Gi'd up, so he showed the Judo guys how to improve their Judo and he showed us how to actually fight...the Judo way. He called us Ninjas cuz we were dressed all in black. I also found it interesting that he was really into ground work where most are satisfied with good throwing skills. I felt very honored to work with him and he really took a liking to our group. We are slowly loosing our old time warriors with ancient knowledge. Though, I am doing the best I could to preserve that knowledge here by traveling and training with these people now before they are gone!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

psdtc
quote:

Dont they already know that its a evolution of judo? I am sure that I have read a number of times in different accounts by different writers that it was so.

i have trained in both Judo, and Brazilian jujitsu off and on during my life and then consistently over the past 6 years on a semi regular bases, and apparently I even hold a blackbelt in JUDO. Only reason I started training in judo though was to learn more non violent control and restraint techniques that could be offered to people in fields that had to have things to use for non lethal training and was accepted by the US government as a standard for them based on the laws.

However to be honest out of all the judo based evolved arts I have trained or ranked in over the years, the one i liked the most was Aki Jujitsu better then either of the other 2 mostly because i knew the other two as well and i like the really tight small circle locks that you get with aki jujitsu that you dont get with judo or Brazilian jujitsu, however i believe based on my poor memory that even aki jujitsu is an evolution off of judo.

However, many long term arts have incorporated judo techniques and training into there arts and have evolved into new arts from that bases, even the fma has escrido and that again is just another addition of judo to that art. I just was surprised by your letter because well I thought everyone knew that though and were taught it in there class formats wile learning there evolved judo arts. shrug ok sometimes I am naive……J

Judo and that base of the art is good for people that can only use control and restraint and cant go full out and do what it takes to stop the aggression, i.e. police and security teams, mental hospital staff and other jobs. However it’s a long long term art that has to be trained and tested over and over to be sure that the techniques are used correctly and it has to be understood as well that if you cant control and restrain with it you have to have reality based training to back it if you get into trouble.

Johnaleen bows deeply

" Deadly, Silent, Ferial when Cornered"


In my opinion, we are lucky that the Gracie family family had recieved and preserved an almost extict area of Judo that was almost forgotten. I trained in BBJ and GJJ long before it became a trend in the US. My conclusion on the difference is Judo being very aggressive to throwing and if the guy isn't hurt of killed once hitting the floor, agressively going into a position to submission. Where GJJ and BJJ...especially GJJ is very patient where sometimes it looks like you are in a bad position but yer not. It is based on patients and sensitivety being able to fight from any position given. The more flexable you are the better you can fight from whatever position you are in at the time...considering the person is a helluva lot stronger than yourself...or considerably younger! It takes work to get good at both (as if you didn't know that) I personally like the blend of aggression and patients of course!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

BswiftNmerciful
quote:

Dont they already know that its a evolution of judo? I am sure that I have read a number of times in different accounts by different writers that it was so....

...Johnaleen bows deeply

" Deadly, Silent, Ferial when Cornered"



Yes of course they do, but still it gets marketed with the trademark name followed by "Jiu-Jitsu". I was told once the only diference between Judo and Ju-Jitsu is in Judo you win, in Ju-Jitsu you live. There is no time to tap out when you are trying to kill your enemy, eh? I also respect the control and restraint type application of the techniques but as you point out and I like to say, "getting there is the fun part" It needs to be practiced,(realisticly) that's for sure!


Ray...

psdtc
quote:

quote:

Dont they already know that its a evolution of judo? I am sure that I have read a number of times in different accounts by different writers that it was so....

...Johnaleen bows deeply

" Deadly, Silent, Ferial when Cornered"



Yes of course they do, but still it gets marketed with the trademark name followed by "Jiu-Jitsu". I was told once the only diference between Judo and Ju-Jitsu is in Judo you win, in Ju-Jitsu you live. There is no time to tap out when you are trying to kill your enemy, eh? I also respect the control and restraint type application of the techniques but as you point out and I like to say, "getting there is the fun part" It needs to be practiced,(realisticly) that's for sure!


Ray...


I was told by my Judo instructor that the added throws were made to basically smash an opponent to the ground and kill him. The idea of throwing and holding him or her up with the gi when they land is showing respect and honor in compitition. Like you mentioned in your quote...it shows defeat without having to kill. A martial art that has restraint capabilities is a good martial art. The only thing is, one needs to see both extremes to understand both extremes!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

thaiboxerken I had an instructor that talked about one of his judo instructors teaching throws that were very similar to Silat, in that they weren't as flashy as Judo throws today and they tended to break people. Oh, and they also included the hidden strikes, pinches and bites.

---------------------
Apprentice Inosanto System of FMA, JKD Concepts.

Instructor certified by Frank Cucci in Linxx system.

psdtc
quote:

I had an instructor that talked about one of his judo instructors teaching throws that were very similar to Silat, in that they weren't as flashy as Judo throws today and they tended to break people. Oh, and they also included the hidden strikes, pinches and bites.

---------------------
Apprentice Inosanto System of FMA, JKD Concepts.

Instructor certified by Frank Cucci in Linxx system.



Judo is 100% based on leverage and the throws are very sophisticated and probably as much as any other style actually. If you watch the middle to light weight class fights, you can see good technique. Its the heavey weights that tend to try to outstrength their opponents from what I have seen. Judo at one time also had strikes. I have never heard of bitingbut there are or were strikes. Depending on who you learn from. Integrateg Grappling Systems, as I call my grappling methods has plenty of strikes and bites

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

thaiboxerken I think that goes to show that the instructor makes the art as much as the name does. I've seen some horrible Muay Thai out there, because of horrible instructors.

---------------------
Apprentice Inosanto System of FMA, JKD Concepts.

Instructor certified by Frank Cucci in Linxx system.

psdtc
quote:

I think that goes to show that the instructor makes the art as much as the name does. I've seen some horrible Muay Thai out there, because of horrible instructors.

---------------------
Apprentice Inosanto System of FMA, JKD Concepts.

Instructor certified by Frank Cucci in Linxx system.



It does seem that 1st, 2nd - 5th generation instructors water the styles down by the time they teach it cuz quality control is gone due to their instructors not keeping quality going. Or students leave prematurally with an ego that they know it all already. I had one student who left years ago and opened his own school. And it is horrible! Everyone who sees what is going on can't believe the change! The form is gone and all I taught this person seemed to be lost and on top of all that...he was beaten up by a street fighter. Ego stops the learning process by thinking one knows it all. And that only hinders new details that can improve technique...and personality!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

fullcombat Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.

psdtc
quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



If a person is mixing Jodo, Jiu Jitsu and Karate together, they are only going back to its exact roots. Jiu Jitsu or Jujitsu is a generic name like Kung Fu, Karate, Arnis or even Silat. A generic term as an all around term when speaking of the martial arts of that particular culture. You have to put a title in front of it to have the distiguishing charactoristics of that particular style. Harrimau Silat, Wing Cun Kung Fu (Kung Fu actually does not mean martial arts anyway, its an American thing) Modern Arnis or Arnis De Mano, etc are more descriptive. I say this because at one time, though Jiu Jitsu means gentile art, had Karate within it already. Even old timer Judo Players know how to kick and punch to get in and grab. Martial arts in Japan did seperate ranges back in the late 1800's to early 1900's due to the gun and cannons coming into play for combat purposes. Like Aikido, ground fighting in Jiu Jitsu or the styles of Jiu Jitsu that do standup grappling to joint manipulations or throws. Judo and Karate styles are usually seperate also. Serious martial arts like Pekiti Tirsia and Rossi Kun Tao have little place in todays society cuz people don't want to know how to kill. They want to be able to spar well and/or wrestle well for the most part. So you don't get big groups flocking to Pekiti Tirsia or Kun Tao. You get groups that are looking to learn an actual ancient warrior style and get good self defense at the same time. I am blabbing here cuz someone mixed...but get my point here...our Kun Tao here at the PSDTC covers all ranges of actual combat as a whole and not to be seperated (though there are tho's who do) You see various kicking to hand work with a form of trapping (destructive trapping) and standing to ground grappling. You also see that in Pekiti Tirsia (though many only know the weapons aspects with a few moves outside of that I notice). Now at one time, all martial arts were as one. Kun Tao is one of the oldest forms of martial arts. My instructor....the late Grand Master Joe Rossi used to say that all martial arts come from Kun Tao. Growing up and seeing mostly the seperation, I used to think he was just bias to HIS style. Though now that I understand the history of martial arts where most martial arts around the world come from India and China and Kun Tao originated from China, it makes more sence to me on what he was referring to. Ironically, even though it is for sport purposes, people are mixing again...just like ancient pancration back in the Greek and Roman days. In those days, the seperation was unheard of. And their soldiers didn't seperate their weapon training from their fight training. Sorry...a long reply but it brought all this to mind to explain that certain styles that are seperated are empty styles. Usually seperated for sport purposes...like point sparring of kick boxing for Karate.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
2148 South Main St.
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

jerseyisl
quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



It's a school set up by NYPD officer (retiered) in order to give kids an opportunaty to make something of their lives instead of joining lockal gangs. Many of his students became NYPD or MP. They all succeded in life. The school has millitery style training and its students are extreemely tough.


psdtc
quote:

quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



It's a school set up by NYPD officer (retiered) in order to give kids an opportunaty to make something of their lives instead of joining lockal gangs. Many of his students became NYPD or MP. They all succeded in life. The school has millitery style training and its students are extreemely tough.


Jerseyisl...welcome to the forum! Actually, we would like to know more about this program. This is something I have been saying for many years that the kids need to keep them off the streets. They need something to do. This is a great idea. On top of that, I can't believe there are people out there that actually care enough to put a program like this together. i wish this trend would spread and give kids a feeling of accomplishment and a feeling of worthiness. one can only imagine the amount of crime that would prevent due to the fact that most crimes take place at night. Jerseyisl, we look forward to hearing more from you!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

JP Speaking of Judo; check out this neat clip of clean throws. If you have seen matches you know the throws are not always this clean but I really like this clip. Turn the volume up and get the pronunciation of the terms. Some names are sooo..long!
http://cafe.rapidus.net/roarbour/video/26_judo_throws.wmv

psdtc
quote:

Speaking of Judo; check out this neat clip of clean throws. If you have seen matches you know the throws are not always this clean but I really like this clip. Turn the volume up and get the pronunciation of the terms. Some names are sooo..long!
http://cafe.rapidus.net/roarbour/video/26_judo_throws.wmv




Judo is a VERY powerful martial art. Its respect is lost because of the fact that many school focus only on getting a clean throw and neglect the striking aspects and the ground fighting. Most of what you see in BJJ and much of what you see in Sombo is already in Judo. Unfortunately, people are getting their Black Belts in it with out practicing those neglected areas. So a lot of people ignor Judo. Notice the russians, the Japanese and many Europians can make their judo work well. i often hear they think of American Judo as week. Thats why the BJJ thing got so powerful...when Judo has already been here since the early 1900's! I had the chance to train with Sensie George Mehdi from Brazil, a very highly respected 9th degree Black Belt. I got to see stuff in Judo I did not realize was in the style. Its too bad it can die out if it is not well preserved. john Periera from Danbury CT is my teacher and a close friend. (he now moved to Tennesee) has great graound work. i always thought he was the best Judo player around due to his knowledge in all areas of Judo including the striking. Sid Kelly is another one I always felt was VERY knowledgeable in Judo who has great ground work. By the way, John is from Brazil where he spent a lot of his youth with George Mehdi and thats who he is ranked under and continues to be loyal to him to this day!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

JP I remember the Bruce Tegner books from when I was a kid. Thats all that was around then. I remember the pictures of Bruce Tegner in the GI with the pants that came up to his shins and the sleeves that were too short. I guess they were made for the charactoristicaly smaller framed non-occidental back then. Very interesting.
"Judo" Gene LeBelle has been around forever. Judo Gene has been a tough guy in Hollywood since black and white TV! He's a tough old guy that deserves a lot of respect.

psdtc
quote:

quote:
Judo at one time also had strikes.

Ron Kosakowski


I have a few out-of-print books by two american greats in the realm of Judo and Jujitsu. They might be of interest in reviewing because they show judo and jujitsu strikes.

The first was from the early 1960's by Gene Le'Bell. It was his first book and showed a comparison of street self defense moves using the arts of Judo, Boxing and Karate. It shows some great judo strikes.

The second, which is a set of three books, is by Bruce Tegner. While he never was recognized by the martial arts community, his accomplishments were far more then Bruce Lee. His mother was a jui-jitsu instructor and his father was a Judo instructor. By age 2 Bruce Tegner was training in both systems under his parents. What a role model to have!

By the mid-1950's Bruce Tegner had written books on Judo, Jui-Jitsu, Karate and Savate. He then combined these systems into one self defense system called Jukado.

Anyway both Gene Lebells old book (even his biographer doesnt reference it, thats how old it is) and Bruce Tegners books offer some great "pure" rather than mainstream techniques from these arts.


"When a fool jumps off a building, it appears as though he is flying when really he is falling."


Yah, going back to who knows what year, I had all of Bruce Tegners books. I used to practice those moves thinking I had an edge on the ones I was doing Karate with. I am sure I would have if it were more formal training back then. As for making it bigger or doing better than Bruce Lee...not even close. Bruce Lee's fighting methods in his stand up is far more scientific, especially in the areas of simutaneous defend and atteck methods. And he made it far bigger. Bruce Lee has books and made it in movies and people think of Bruce Lee when martial arts is even mentioned. The tao of JKD is still the #1 book sold to this day. If he only knew! If he didn't die, who know man!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

psdtc
quote:

I remember the Bruce Tegner books from when I was a kid. Thats all that was around then. I remember the pictures of Bruce Tegner in the GI with the pants that came up to his shins and the sleeves that were too short. I guess they were made for the charactoristicaly smaller framed non-occidental back then. Very interesting.
"Judo" Gene LeBelle has been around forever. Judo Gene has been a tough guy in Hollywood since black and white TV! He's a tough old guy that deserves a lot of respect.



Yes, that is one person that I always wanted to learn from. Now that Larry Hartsell teaches at Gene Lebelle's school, I would imagine I am now going to meet him soon. I can't wait!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

psdtc
quote:

anyone?

Thanks,

South Florida Fusion Magazine, Inc.
http://www.southfloridafusion.com


Whats the question?

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

ivedonedidit
quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



I'm sorry to bring up such an old topic but I couldn't help it. I'm an old student from KAR DO JITSU RYU and i'm just happy to see it being reconized. Just to give you guys a quick back round of the style its a mix of many things.. As you can tell in the name KAR DO JITSU RYU. The karate styles practice and taught are a mix of goju ryu and shotokan. The do is for Judo and I'm pretty sure you guys can figure what the jitsu stands for LOL.. We do have instructors who have different backrounds in many arts and teach us a few techniques. As mentioned before, it was started by a man named John Manniel (10th dan) who was a NY police officer. He started the program to help get kids of the streets. Now the federation has branched out to many states including NY, NJ,CT, FL and maryland. If you guys have any questions about the system i'll be more then happy to share as much as I know.

psdtc
quote:

quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



I'm sorry to bring up such an old topic but I couldn't help it. I'm an old student from KAR DO JITSU RYU and i'm just happy to see it being reconized. Just to give you guys a quick back round of the style its a mix of many things.. As you can tell in the name KAR DO JITSU RYU. The karate styles practice and taught are a mix of goju ryu and shotokan. The do is for Judo and I'm pretty sure you guys can figure what the jitsu stands for LOL.. We do have instructors who have different backrounds in many arts and teach us a few techniques. As mentioned before, it was started by a man named John Manniel (10th dan) who was a NY police officer. He started the program to help get kids of the streets. Now the federation has branched out to many states including NY, NJ,CT, FL and maryland. If you guys have any questions about the system i'll be more then happy to share as much as I know.



Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.

Feel free to post and speak your views!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

Max Lancaster Actually. From what I was taught by several Teachers who taught Kenjutsu from Japan was the Do's are the water down version of a battle feild art. Kenjutsu to Kendo , Jujutsu to Judo and Aiki-Jujutsu to Aikido..Judo was from what I was told by several masters from Japan was not a mother art. JuJutsu was the battle field mother art. That has locks, Joint manipultion, Throws, Chokes and so on and so on. Even the Judo hip toss is linked to the Jujutsu Armour toss of grabbing the other guys armour and throwing him off balance

Judo has to be watered down in order for it to be a Sport for the olympcs and to also be used by the Japanese police force and anyother sport like setting where you can't kill the other guy =)

My referances are Mausi Sako, Obatra Sensei, And a few Master from the dojo of the four winds and not to mention two great friends from Japan who are both teachers and masters of Ancient Samurai Arts

I studied under all of these I mentioned in the above arts. I do find BJJ to be alittle more superiour to normal JJ only because BJJ had time to evole and become something new. Normal Japanese arts from what I have studied have not evolved. At all, As talked about in another topic on the forum.

________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

Pitbulls Tribe So. Cali
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/TheVorpalOne/PITBULLS.jpg

psdtc
quote:

Actually. From what I was taught by several Teachers who taught Kenjutsu from Japan was the Do's are the water down version of a battle feild art. Kenjutsu to Kendo , Jujutsu to Judo and Aiki-Jujutsu to Aikido..Judo was from what I was told by several masters from Japan was not a mother art. JuJutsu was the battle field mother art. That has locks, Joint manipultion, Throws, Chokes and so on and so on. Even the Judo hip toss is linked to the Jujutsu Armour toss of grabbing the other guys armour and throwing him off balance

Judo has to be watered down in order for it to be a Sport for the olympcs and to also be used by the Japanese police force and anyother sport like setting where you can't kill the other guy =)

My referances are Mausi Sako, Obatra Sensei, And a few Master from the dojo of the four winds and not to mention two great friends from Japan who are both teachers and masters of Ancient Samurai Arts

I studied under all of these I mentioned in the above arts. I do find BJJ to be alittle more superiour to normal JJ only because BJJ had time to evole and become something new. Normal Japanese arts from what I have studied have not evolved. At all, As talked about in another topic on the forum.

________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

Pitbulls Tribe So. Cali
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/TheVorpalOne/PITBULLS.jpg



Your knowledge of Japanese martial art history is rather impressive. I know some but you fill in the voids here and there.

I often wonder why the spelling is "jitsu" and not "Jutsu." I really learned the correct way to say it and spell it not to long ago myself. There are many Aiki "Jitsu" schools here in CT. I have seen Ken "Jitsu" schools here also. All of which do not know the proper way to spell the terms of their own styles. I can't help but want to know everything about my martial arts...the culture, the history and especially, the spelling of it.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

ivedonedidit
[/quote][b]Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.

[/quote]

The Do part representing judo is just to break the word down to come up with the whole name of the system. You're completely correct about how we, the US are constantly changing things to simplify things. You are correct on RYU meaning school, and i'm not to sure about the spelling on Jitsu. I know there are different types of "jitsu" and I have always seen it spelled with the I and not the U. I have found some videos on YOUTUBE that speak breifly about the KAR DO JITSU RYU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2KPJrp448

Here is a quick seminar at one of our jersey locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQdszhTrU6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QNAPzg9xpM


Max Lancaster
quote:

quote:

Actually. From what I was taught by several Teachers who taught Kenjutsu from Japan was the Do's are the water down version of a battle feild art. Kenjutsu to Kendo , Jujutsu to Judo and Aiki-Jujutsu to Aikido..Judo was from what I was told by several masters from Japan was not a mother art. JuJutsu was the battle field mother art. That has locks, Joint manipultion, Throws, Chokes and so on and so on. Even the Judo hip toss is linked to the Jujutsu Armour toss of grabbing the other guys armour and throwing him off balance

Judo has to be watered down in order for it to be a Sport for the olympcs and to also be used by the Japanese police force and anyother sport like setting where you can't kill the other guy =)

My referances are Mausi Sako, Obatra Sensei, And a few Master from the dojo of the four winds and not to mention two great friends from Japan who are both teachers and masters of Ancient Samurai Arts

I studied under all of these I mentioned in the above arts. I do find BJJ to be alittle more superiour to normal JJ only because BJJ had time to evole and become something new. Normal Japanese arts from what I have studied have not evolved. At all, As talked about in another topic on the forum.

________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

Pitbulls Tribe So. Cali
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/TheVorpalOne/PITBULLS.jpg



Your knowledge of Japanese martial art history is rather impressive. I know some but you fill in the voids here and there.

I often wonder why the spelling is "jitsu" and not "Jutsu." I really learned the correct way to say it and spell it not to long ago myself. There are many Aiki "Jitsu" schools here in CT. I have seen Ken "Jitsu" schools here also. All of which do not know the proper way to spell the terms of their own styles. I can't help but want to know everything about my martial arts...the culture, the history and especially, the spelling of it.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com



Ron Kosakowski - I try to atleast some what know about it. I studied Japanese history for along time, Their Culture, Their way of life and then their martial arts. In my honest Opinon you have to learn the people before you learn the way they fight. I studied the Japanese sword for awhile (As I mentioned in another post) Along with the Aiki stuff but I found it was not the way "I" would fight and how I fight based on street encounters...So I started looking for another path..Thats where I stumbled in reading about Filipino culture and history and really just came across Kali. Then I started to add the puzzle together..I like to shove people against a wall and punch them alot ahaha So I got into Boxing and Filipino Boxing or dirty boxing. I then went to Bud Thompsons Kali academy cause I saw they worked with Boxing and Pantukuan (Spelling?) And Grappling. I started to be trained in JKD/JunFan stuff and I didnt like it one bit. Not for me, So he kept me on Boxing and Pantukuan (Spelling?) And Grappling then I asked him about Kali and he told me I was already learning aspects of it "Pantukuan" I was like I want more and then he got me intro to the full system and Silat. From there I seeked out other instructors and found myself learning Pekiti Tersia, Sayoc and Kali/Silat.From there I power rolled right into Brazilian Jujutsu and I noticed my Japanese Martial Arts starting to simmer down..I was practicing the sword less and less, I found myself asking why? I carry a knife lol! But in the end My love and heart went with the SE and Island Martial arts systems.

But I have a pretty nice background of folks I have trained with and who I keep a steady base with who keep me educated in the Filipino People and Martial culture. My goal is to fight at the Summmer Dog Brothers gathering and one day become a dog brother. =)

But amoung my list of people I have trained with, I one day hope to train with you Ron.

________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

Pitbulls Tribe So. Cali
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/TheVorpalOne/PITBULLS.jpg

bigriver
quote:


[b]Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.

[/quote]

The Do part representing judo is just to break the word down to come up with the whole name of the system. You're completely correct about how we, the US are constantly changing things to simplify things. You are correct on RYU meaning school, and i'm not to sure about the spelling on Jitsu. I know there are different types of "jitsu" and I have always seen it spelled with the I and not the U. I have found some videos on YOUTUBE that speak breifly about the KAR DO JITSU RYU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2KPJrp448

Here is a quick seminar at one of our jersey locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQdszhTrU6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QNAPzg9xpM
[/quote]

Simply put, Kar-D0 is for karate and judo, jitsu is for the ju-jitsu in the system, and RYU is Traditional (one of a kind) first generation.

Louis Toledo
7th Dan-Kar-Do-Jitsu-Ryu (old school 1975 46 street Brooklyn NY.)

bigriver
quote:

quote:


[b]Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.


The Do part representing judo is just to break the word down to come up with the whole name of the system. You're completely correct about how we, the US are constantly changing things to simplify things. You are correct on RYU meaning school, and i'm not to sure about the spelling on Jitsu. I know there are different types of "jitsu" and I have always seen it spelled with the I and not the U. I have found some videos on YOUTUBE that speak breifly about the KAR DO JITSU RYU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2KPJrp448

Here is a quick seminar at one of our jersey locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQdszhTrU6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QNAPzg9xpM
[/quote]

Simply put, Kar-D0 is for karate and judo, jitsu is for the ju-jitsu in the system, and RYU is Traditional (one of a kind) first generation.

Louis Toledo
7th Dan-Kar-Do-Jitsu-Ryu (old school 1975 46 street Brooklyn NY.)

Also note, Aikido was taught in this system as-well as Judo and Ju-Jitsu, two forms of Karate,shotokan and Goju mixed into a deadly street fighting system.

[/quote]

bayside
quote:

quote:

quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



I'm sorry to bring up such an old topic but I couldn't help it. I'm an old student from KAR DO JITSU RYU and i'm just happy to see it being reconized. Just to give you guys a quick back round of the style its a mix of many things.. As you can tell in the name KAR DO JITSU RYU. The karate styles practice and taught are a mix of goju ryu and shotokan. The do is for Judo and I'm pretty sure you guys can figure what the jitsu stands for LOL.. We do have instructors who have different backrounds in many arts and teach us a few techniques. As mentioned before, it was started by a man named John Manniel (10th dan) who was a NY police officer. He started the program to help get kids of the streets. Now the federation has branched out to many states including NY, NJ,CT, FL and maryland. If you guys have any questions about the system i'll be more then happy to share as much as I know.



Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.

Feel free to post and speak your views!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com


Johnny Bombs Bayside ?

bayside
quote:

quote:

quote:

quote:

Speaking of Ju-Jitsu, anyone here ever heard of Kar Do Jitsu Ryu, or the Kar Do Jitsu Ryu Federation? There claims to be an 8th degree grandmaster in CT of this system, but no information on the web regarding it; other that it being a style which is a mix of Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Usually you can find a web site with information regarding the federation, the organization, and governance, but nothing here, which makes me wonder if this is a made up system with no real structure or organization.



I'm sorry to bring up such an old topic but I couldn't help it. I'm an old student from KAR DO JITSU RYU and i'm just happy to see it being reconized. Just to give you guys a quick back round of the style its a mix of many things.. As you can tell in the name KAR DO JITSU RYU. The karate styles practice and taught are a mix of goju ryu and shotokan. The do is for Judo and I'm pretty sure you guys can figure what the jitsu stands for LOL.. We do have instructors who have different backrounds in many arts and teach us a few techniques. As mentioned before, it was started by a man named John Manniel (10th dan) who was a NY police officer. He started the program to help get kids of the streets. Now the federation has branched out to many states including NY, NJ,CT, FL and maryland. If you guys have any questions about the system i'll be more then happy to share as much as I know.



Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.

Feel free to post and speak your views!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com


I am one of many students of John Manniel who is the founder of Kar-Do-Jitsu Ryu Federation I have been his student for 34 yrs I own my own school for 20 yrs in the state of Maryland under the Kar-Do-Jitsu Ryu Federation, and yes we do have a school in CT who are in our Federation. Big River who is my brother explained perfectly what it stands for. Because of Shidoshi Manniel many many young people went done the right path of life. many are police officers and other great careers. He taught us more than just how to defend ourselves in the real world He taught us to be great in all we do in life. The Kar-Do-Jitsu Ryu Federation is more than just a Federation we are all family
Diana Toledo Martin



bayside
quote:

Bayside ?




Johnny Bombs? lol

psdtc
quote:

quote:

quote:


Welcome to the forum. Yes, I would like to hear more and see videos if you have any. You can just embed the code right on the forum to show the videos.

I can see it is an American blend of Japanese words. "Do" representing "Judo" does not make sense to me. Do just means way and Jitsu...properly spelled, "jutsu" means art. If I am not mistaken, "ryu" means school. Ya got me on "kar"...I only know some words that are martial art related plus a few more outside the subject. Just enough to get by. Of course, that does not mean the system is not good. Here in the US, we are constantly blending. We are seeing an evolution in martial arts in our own life-time.


The Do part representing judo is just to break the word down to come up with the whole name of the system. You're completely correct about how we, the US are constantly changing things to simplify things. You are correct on RYU meaning school, and i'm not to sure about the spelling on Jitsu. I know there are different types of "jitsu" and I have always seen it spelled with the I and not the U. I have found some videos on YOUTUBE that speak breifly about the KAR DO JITSU RYU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg2KPJrp448

Here is a quick seminar at one of our jersey locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQdszhTrU6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QNAPzg9xpM


Simply put, Kar-D0 is for karate and judo, jitsu is for the ju-jitsu in the system, and RYU is Traditional (one of a kind) first generation.

Louis Toledo
7th Dan-Kar-Do-Jitsu-Ryu (old school 1975 46 street Brooklyn NY.)

Also note, Aikido was taught in this system as-well as Judo and Ju-Jitsu, two forms of Karate,shotokan and Goju mixed into a deadly street fighting system.

[/quote]


[/quote][b]If you guys can, start writing under where you see the "/quote" after pressing reply. I get confused on the thread when your reply is in the middle of the thread.

Well, I looked at the videos and all I saw was how the man was a soldier and a police officer who did a few tricks with wood.

I saw Drew on there doing a puch defense. No offence but I do not see it as effective plus I never knew he was involved in this style. It must be a newer venture for him. Those punch defences leave out the possibility that the guy has another hand and does not hold his hand in a posed position after it is innitiated. No footwork also to defend such a punch. I don't see it as being effective for reality fighting. No offence, I am just throwing in my scientific opinion here. Everything works in theory...theory must be tested to be a fact!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

bigriver These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Nik
quote:

These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.


Every one claims to be a street fighting organization these days. I saw the videos of this system. Its not bad but nothing to write home about. Nothing unique about it either.

psdtc
quote:

quote:

These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.


Every one claims to be a street fighting organization these days. I saw the videos of this system. Its not bad but nothing to write home about. Nothing unique about it either.



Yes, it is easy to get conned. I highly recommend looking around. Unforunately, to the uneducated martial artist to be, it is easy to get conned. Any fancy looking move can look deadly to someone who does not know the difference anyway. Its the luck of the draw...to bad you find out if it works or not inna real fight when what you learned is needed.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

bigriver KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU has been a street fighting system since the early 70's not just these days. The system was founded by a NY Police officer ex recon ranger, air born special forces intelligent Man. John F Manniel.

His students are from a tough naborhood in Sunset Park Brooklyn, not an easy to survive on the streets place.

To this day there is a KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU dojo there on 46 street and 4th Ave, drop by and see for yourself. They still teach traditional KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU there.


KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Isshin Kempo
Isshin Ryu

Nik
quote:

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU has been a street fighting system since the early 70's not just these days. The system was founded by a NY Police officer ex recon ranger, air born special forces intelligent Man. John F Manniel.

His students are from a tough naborhood in Sunset Park Brooklyn, not an easy to survive on the streets place.

To this day there is a KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU dojo there on 46 street and 4th Ave, drop by and see for yourself. They still teach traditional KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU there.


KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Isshin Kempo
Isshin Ryu


You know, everyone claims to have the street effective martial art. Why is that? Is that a prerequisite for having a martial art school to claim to be a street fighting martial art? I would think all martial arts by definition would prepare a person for the street. The videos of kar do jitsu rye are not convincing to me but then again they are videos. Then again there are videos of real fighting systems that are convincing. Everyone seems to make up their own style and call it a street fighting art.

bizy
quote:

quote:

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU has been a street fighting system since the early 70's not just these days. The system was founded by a NY Police officer ex recon ranger, air born special forces intelligent Man. John F Manniel.

His students are from a tough naborhood in Sunset Park Brooklyn, not an easy to survive on the streets place.

To this day there is a KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU dojo there on 46 street and 4th Ave, drop by and see for yourself. They still teach traditional KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU there.


KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Isshin Kempo
Isshin Ryu


You know, everyone claims to have the street effective martial art. Why is that? Is that a prerequisite for having a martial art school to claim to be a street fighting martial art? I would think all martial arts by definition would prepare a person for the street. The videos of kar do jitsu rye are not convincing to me but then again they are videos. Then again there are videos of real fighting systems that are convincing. Everyone seems to make up their own style and call it a street fighting art.



lol, i can agree with that one. i never heard of kar do. i have never seen them fight anyone or anyone of importance using the style for military, police or anything else. ok so they have some police officers in their school. what martial art school does not have police officers? i simply don't know what the claim to fame is on the kar do jitsu style is besides a good sales pitch on a forum. where is the documented or video proof that it is an effective martial art?

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
Albert Einstein

psdtc
quote:

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU has been a street fighting system since the early 70's not just these days. The system was founded by a NY Police officer ex recon ranger, air born special forces intelligent Man. John F Manniel.

His students are from a tough naborhood in Sunset Park Brooklyn, not an easy to survive on the streets place.

To this day there is a KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU dojo there on 46 street and 4th Ave, drop by and see for yourself. They still teach traditional KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU there.


KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Isshin Kempo
Isshin Ryu


I don't have time to stop there and check it out. Though, thanx for the invite. I have to say that law enforcement and force recon Marines do not have any good martial art experience; they train very little hand to hand. Its mostly firearms they are focused on for whatever situation they are to go up against. So the guy that put this together had to train in a martial art school or two or three. Granted his up bringing and military/police background will raise the mentality of the style that much more than an individual who did not live that life style.

Personally, I would like to see a video or something on what they do against a resisting opponent with and without weapons to judge the style. My past has has been a little bitta hell also and I did a lot of fighting. The styles I chose are proven combative and could adapt to the street or the ring. I have about 42 videos on youtube to prove that. My fighters are all doing well and winning. Some say, that is not street fighting in the ring cuz you can't eye poke or bite or whatever. Then again, who is to say a ring fighter doing MMA cannot do the same or cannot fight in the ring? I also teach military killing tactics, some of that is on video also. A good martial art cvan be taken to ANY extreme with NO excuses why it cannot!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

Rob I can't believe you guys never heard of KAR DO. If your driving around the "naborhood", you should have twoLOL! And as for military self defense, its all Karate oriented. I use to watch the Marines do their "Line System"...straight Karate, rigid n stiff, no fluidity whatsoever. It sucked. Even their boxing, unless you were on the official Boxing team(Army,Navy,Marines etc.)they just threw gloves on you and put you in the circle or pit and it was a go for self, sometimes straight up bitch fight. Fuckin hilarious! They had no real per say "Fight" training, and don't even get me started on the MMA implimentation. They have a program now called MCMAP(Marine Corps Martial Art Program) where they have Belts to rank their progression-Tan thru 6 degrees of Black. They think their actually Black Belts upon graduation.(except those with experience, but do the numbers on that)and bootcamp is only 2mos 10days, 70 fuckinn days! Com'on man!!!!

"The only difference between combat and sport is, in combat you bury whoever comes in second."

psdtc
quote:

quote:
I can't believe you guys never heard of KAR DO. If your driving around the "naborhood", you should have twoLOL!

Its good to see someone else is doing the bad corny jokes. But don't up-stage me! heheheh

[quote]And as for military self defense, its all Karate oriented. I use to watch the Marines do their "Line System"...straight Karate, rigid n stiff, no fluidity whatsoever. It sucked. Even their boxing, unless you were on the official Boxing team(Army,Navy,Marines etc.)they just threw gloves on you and put you in the circle or pit and it was a go for self, sometimes straight up bitch fight. Fuckin hilarious! They had no real per say "Fight" training, and don't even get me started on the MMA implimentation. They have a program now called MCMAP(Marine Corps Martial Art Program) where they have Belts to rank their progression-Tan thru 6 degrees of Black. They think their actually Black Belts upon graduation.(except those with experience, but do the numbers on that)and bootcamp is only 2mos 10days, 70 fuckinn days! Com'on man!!!!

"The only difference between combat and sport is, in combat you bury whoever comes in second."



Out of that 70 day, from what I understand, you get that half assed training in hand to hand for about 2 weeks. The rest is what our military considers to be necessary. One of them is wearing a person down to make him or her stronger in the long run. A sort of brain washing ya might say. This brain washing does give an individual a warrior like mentality and part of that is to follow directions.

I really get a kick out of people who claim their martial art is "that much better" due to their military training. Unless they are training in the special forces and even then, it is still fire arms oriented, they cannot claim a military back ground is what developed their style. It is the teacher(s) they went to that gave them their style and it is how much the individual put into it oin the long run that makes it good. One must make it part of their lifestyle in order for something special is expected.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

NACFILMS
I am a Black Belt in KDJR Karate having trained there in the 80's and I found it to be very challenging physically, mentally and spiritually. It laid a great foundation for me and has opened my eyes to the Martial Arts as a whole. I have been training for the last several years in JKD and Kali/Silat under Sifu Dan Anderson whom is a student of Guru Inosanto himself and I am also a student of Vitor "Shaolin" Ribiero on both MAA and BJJ. I sincerely believe that if it wasn't for KDJR Karate and the senior Black Belts there; I would have never reached the level of understanding that I have now of the Martial Arts. They helped me through some through times in those crime ridden streets of Sunset Park Brooklyn and taught me to overcome all obstacles that try to impede my development. They also encouraged me to aspire for greatness and never worry about failing; for true failure plauges those that don't aspire to achieve at all. I have read several of the comments in reguards to KDJR Karate and have seen some good points in the rebutals of the authors; I guess the best way to answer the question of KDJR Karate's effectiveness in or out of the ring is by saying that they aren't any perfect or superior systems just "SUPERSIOR TRAINING METHODS". These "SUPERIOR TRAINING METHODS" incorporated by instructors, address the harsh reality of hand to hand combat; by developing the attributes that a fighter needs to survive in a physical altercation. Many of these training methods do involve "ACTIVE RESISTANCE" from your sparring partners which are very important and crucial to your survival; as it gives the fighters the same resistance that they are going to experience in a real fight. As far as the Shidoshi Manniel's board breaking video? Well that was produced over 30 years ago and KDJR Karate has evolved since then.

Antonio Arecibo

quote:

quote:

These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.


Every one claims to be a street fighting organization these days. I saw the videos of this system. Its not bad but nothing to write home about. Nothing unique about it either.



Yes, it is easy to get conned. I highly recommend looking around. Unforunately, to the uneducated martial artist to be, it is easy to get conned. Any fancy looking move can look deadly to someone who does not know the difference anyway. Its the luck of the draw...to bad you find out if it works or not inna real fight when what you learned is needed.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com
[/quote]

psdtc
quote:

I am a Black Belt in KDJR Karate having trained there in the 80's and I found it to be very challenging physically, mentally and spiritually. It laid a great foundation for me and has opened my eyes to the Martial Arts as a whole. I have been training for the last several years in JKD and Kali/Silat under Sifu Dan Anderson whom is a student of Guru Inosanto himself and I am also a student of Vitor "Shaolin" Ribiero on both MAA and BJJ. I sincerely believe that if it wasn't for KDJR Karate and the senior Black Belts there; I would have never reached the level of understanding that I have now of the Martial Arts. They helped me through some through times in those crime ridden streets of Sunset Park Brooklyn and taught me to overcome all obstacles that try to impede my development. They also encouraged me to aspire for greatness and never worry about failing; for true failure plauges those that don't aspire to achieve at all. I have read several of the comments in reguards to KDJR Karate and have seen some good points in the rebutals of the authors; I guess the best way to answer the question of KDJR Karate's effectiveness in or out of the ring is by saying that they aren't any perfect or superior systems just "SUPERSIOR TRAINING METHODS". These "SUPERIOR TRAINING METHODS" incorporated by instructors, address the harsh reality of hand to hand combat; by developing the attributes that a fighter needs to survive in a physical altercation. Many of these training methods do involve "ACTIVE RESISTANCE" from your sparring partners which are very important and crucial to your survival; as it gives the fighters the same resistance that they are going to experience in a real fight. As far as the Shidoshi Manniel's board breaking video? Well that was produced over 30 years ago and KDJR Karate has evolved since then.

Antonio Arecibo

quote:

quote:

These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.


Every one claims to be a street fighting organization these days. I saw the videos of this system. Its not bad but nothing to write home about. Nothing unique about it either.



Yes, it is easy to get conned. I highly recommend looking around. Unforunately, to the uneducated martial artist to be, it is easy to get conned. Any fancy looking move can look deadly to someone who does not know the difference anyway. Its the luck of the draw...to bad you find out if it works or not inna real fight when what you learned is needed.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com



[/quote]NACFILMS...welcome to the forum. I am glad to see you found your nitcha dn what works for you. The old saying for car salesmen, "there is an ass for every seat!" Its good that you found your seat. I found mine...some out there are still looking for a place to sit!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

bigriver Thank you very well said Antonio, I or my sister Diana may have been one of your trainers back then.

Louis Toledo
http://www.uniondojo.com
http://www.kardojitsuryukaratefederation.com

quote:

quote:

I am a Black Belt in KDJR Karate having trained there in the 80's and I found it to be very challenging physically, mentally and spiritually. It laid a great foundation for me and has opened my eyes to the Martial Arts as a whole. I have been training for the last several years in JKD and Kali/Silat under Sifu Dan Anderson whom is a student of Guru Inosanto himself and I am also a student of Vitor "Shaolin" Ribiero on both MAA and BJJ. I sincerely believe that if it wasn't for KDJR Karate and the senior Black Belts there; I would have never reached the level of understanding that I have now of the Martial Arts. They helped me through some through times in those crime ridden streets of Sunset Park Brooklyn and taught me to overcome all obstacles that try to impede my development. They also encouraged me to aspire for greatness and never worry about failing; for true failure plauges those that don't aspire to achieve at all. I have read several of the comments in reguards to KDJR Karate and have seen some good points in the rebutals of the authors; I guess the best way to answer the question of KDJR Karate's effectiveness in or out of the ring is by saying that they aren't any perfect or superior systems just "SUPERSIOR TRAINING METHODS". These "SUPERIOR TRAINING METHODS" incorporated by instructors, address the harsh reality of hand to hand combat; by developing the attributes that a fighter needs to survive in a physical altercation. Many of these training methods do involve "ACTIVE RESISTANCE" from your sparring partners which are very important and crucial to your survival; as it gives the fighters the same resistance that they are going to experience in a real fight. As far as the Shidoshi Manniel's board breaking video? Well that was produced over 30 years ago and KDJR Karate has evolved since then.

Antonio Arecibo

quote:

quote:

These videos of Drew display Drew's ideas and were not part of the Kar-do-Jitsu Ryu system, although I would not say he is not effective as he is part of our federation and membership does not come easy. keep in mind we are a street fighting system.

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.


Every one claims to be a street fighting organization these days. I saw the videos of this system. Its not bad but nothing to write home about. Nothing unique about it either.



Yes, it is easy to get conned. I highly recommend looking around. Unforunately, to the uneducated martial artist to be, it is easy to get conned. Any fancy looking move can look deadly to someone who does not know the difference anyway. Its the luck of the draw...to bad you find out if it works or not inna real fight when what you learned is needed.

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com




NACFILMS...welcome to the forum. I am glad to see you found your nitcha dn what works for you. The old saying for car salesmen, "there is an ass for every seat!" Its good that you found your seat. I found mine...some out there are still looking for a place to sit!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com
[/quote]

KAR-DO-JITSU-RYU KARATE FEDERATION.

Edited by - bigriver on 10/20/2008 12:02:53

bizy
quote:


NACFILMS...welcome to the forum. I am glad to see you found your nitcha dn what works for you. The old saying for car salesmen, "there is an ass for every seat!" Its good that you found your seat. I found mine...some out there are still looking for a place to sit!
[/quote]
ron, do you have someone to write a book on your philosophical quotes? i love the way you pop these quotes right out of your head for the given situation. someone should start writing them down so you can organize them into a book format. lol

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
Albert Einstein

Max Lancaster Just like to add my five cents. I don't know what you guys now of Military combat training but I am in the Military a 29f to mark the money and have been with several combat groups.

I know the Marines use Mcmap and to me its like Krap Maga but in the Army I just got back from Close Quaters Combat school that was helped put together by a man I admire Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny ( Dog Brothers), South Narc and a couple other high key players in Fighting.

There is stick and knife but its not the type of Kali that you see. It's more to the point. More move, 45 , Pin and stab the hell out of the person. Stick is based on Dog Brothers Power and combo footwork (And some others) They added a hard ground game and great uptop with lots of counters and basic motor fuction skills. There is also alot of stick grappling and other shit.

I am not going to bore you guys with details unless you ask for more.


________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

http://myspace.com/pitbullstribe

psdtc
quote:

Just like to add my five cents. I don't know what you guys now of Military combat training but I am in the Military a 29f to mark the money and have been with several combat groups.

I know the Marines use Mcmap and to me its like Krap Maga but in the Army I just got back from Close Quaters Combat school that was helped put together by a man I admire Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny ( Dog Brothers), South Narc and a couple other high key players in Fighting.

There is stick and knife but its not the type of Kali that you see. It's more to the point. More move, 45 , Pin and stab the hell out of the person. Stick is based on Dog Brothers Power and combo footwork (And some others) They added a hard ground game and great uptop with lots of counters and basic motor fuction skills. There is also alot of stick grappling and other shit.

I am not going to bore you guys with details unless you ask for more.


________________________
Peace, Love and PitBulls

Maxx

http://myspace.com/pitbullstribe



Its about time our military looked away from BJJ and especially Krav Maga and leaned toward stuff that works. Combat is up close and personal now so you need that. Good to hear man!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

psdtc
quote:

ron, do you have someone to write a book on your philosophical quotes? i love the way you pop these quotes right out of your head for the given situation. someone should start writing them down so you can organize them into a book format. lol


heheheh...incidentally, I have been tald that before. If you want to gather all my quotes together on paper and you think we can make money off it, go for it man!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com
http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com

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