quote:

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also i wasnt taking a cheap shot at leo. hes my teachers teacher. i was explianing the diff between both styles. if you want the truth. i like leos better than nenes anyway.

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"THE HARDER YOU WORK THE HARDER IT IS TO SURRENDER"

quote:

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I was going to start a seperate topic but maybe this is as good a place as any... Question: Who likes to practice stick fighting; how (what type of sticks, protection, etc.) and why. Who doesn't like to practice stick fighting, and why. All perspectives are welcome to answer, don't be shy; looking for an objective or general consensas. In other words, a simple truth will do. Looking forward to responses,
Paul K.

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Hmmm...are we trying to change the subject here by chance?

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

quote:

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I was going to start a seperate topic but maybe this is as good a place as any... Question: Who likes to practice stick fighting; how (what type of sticks, protection, etc.) and why. Who doesn't like to practice stick fighting, and why. All perspectives are welcome to answer, don't be shy; looking for an objective or general consensas. In other words, a simple truth will do. Looking forward to responses,
Paul K.

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Amen, I like the way you think and agree with you 100%.

Justin

That would be like reading a how to manual on shooting a gun, but never going to the gun range.

I think doing drills, like dryfiring with a pistol, only takes you so far. Its basically training with no variables, no enviromental changes, no strategy and no unexpected turns. Its too controlled.

While i think it might be better than nothing and is good for developing a consistent foundation. I dont think its a substitute for actual fighting (whether using foam covered PVC sticks or actual rattan sticks).

Im far from an experienced Kali practitioner, due to lack of any qualified instructors near me. But, i know i learned more about my techniques from stick fighting then i did from standing still and doing drills.

quote:

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Dave,
Congratulations on the promotion and Kwame and Gina too. I have always believed in sparring and actual fighting as way to test and gauge your skills. After all I got into this to learn to fight, the other benefits came later. I also think we should try to emulate the warrior code of old: honor, loyalty and not gossiping. Let's behave with this in mind.
Eddie Hunt

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Ed...good to see you on the forum. Folks...Ed is a very old trusted and loyal friend of mine. We go back in time in martial arts and we have something in common called "we like the taste of blood!" And we're not vampires! I respect all opinions here on this forum about all styles. I sure give my opinions and that is what this forum is about. If I never saw a certain style, I would not give an opinipon nor would I listen to rumors and what my friends say in other styles till I see it myself. Most styles have their good points and bad points...if I see them, I will say something about itif I am asked. Nothing against them or the style, it is my opinion. But as I said, it is only if I have seen it somehow or another. That is what a public forum is about. People like controvercy and I notice the threads that have controvercy attract a lot of readers. I see nothing against controvercy either but it has to be intelligent conversation...not stuff rolling off the top of yer minds. This is a very successful forum. We have people from all over the US, Canada, Germany, England and the Philippines. All from various styles. This forum became what I wanted it to become. A book can be written from this forum at this point. blah blah blah...anyway...you all get my point!

Ed, we hope to hear more from you and I guess I will be seeing you soon as well!

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

GM Conrado B. Tortal was the uncle of "Nene" Tortal and the Grandfather of Leo T. Gaje. Both learned the system from GM Conrado at an early age and early on the word was that both had inherited Kali Pekiti-Tirsia on the founders passing. For the most part for many years alot of people accused Tuhon "Nene" Tortal of living in the shadow of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As every time that there was a public demonstration of the system it was always Tuhon "Nene" introducing Tuhon Leo to demonstrate and answer questions of everyone concerning the system. All the while Tuhon "Nene" would sit, observe and assist whenever requested by Tuhon Leo Gaje. It was clear that publically Tuhon Leo Gaje was the driving force behind propagating Kali Pekiti-Tirsia to the world.

Not that Tuhon "Nene" Tortal was incapable as he has been given very high compliments by many in the know. Many of those compliments were from my Instructor the late Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite, he always was very impressed with Tuhon "Nene" Tortals` ability to speak with his movements and not with his mouth. PG Sulite would often compliment Tuhon "Nene" on his knife work among other areas of expertise.

There is no way that you could ever accuse Tuhon "Nene" of moving like Tuhon Gaje, or vice-versa. They both translated the knowledge that they were given by GM Conrado differently and chose to demonstrate it somewhat differently according to natural talents that each possessed. Tuhon Leo is very impressive to watch and moves with flamboyant effect while Tuhon "Nene" moves more directly to the point and thereby not getting caught up in the flash factor of sorts. Tuhon "Nene" is by nature a very quiet man but don`t let his silence fool you as when he needs to get serious he is quite capable of devouring his opponent. Whereas some say that Tuhon Gaje has been given "Anting-anting" for the ability to speak. Some would say that he has a silver tongue and I would have to agree with this as when he speaks his words bring to life the definition of what it is that he is trying to convey. But as well Tuhon Leo Gaje can more than back up anything that he says on a field of battle. Although both take somewhat different approaches each is more than capable in their own unique ways.

What does this all have to do with Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas you ask? Well before 1996 I had never heard of this system and even when speaking with Tuhon "Nene" Tortal in Mambukal, Philippines in February of 1996 he would still refer to his family system as Kali Pekiti-Tirsia. I don`t want to get into the politics of things so I will just say that a few months later in the summer of 1996 an issue over money came up and because of it both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and Tuhon Leo T. Gaje were pushed apart from one another and in anger each went their own way.

Shortly after this I began hearing for the first time of Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and it envoked alot of accusations to fly between the two Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhons which inevitably wedged a greater division between the two. Basically Tuhon "Nene" Tortal started teaching Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and at that time when asked what it was he stated that it was the same system that was founded and taught to him by GM Conrado B. Tortal (Kali Pekiti-Tirsia) but as it was called from a different dialect in his area of Visayas.

So I walked away from all of this as Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas being not a different system than that of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia but actually the two were one in the same with the only difference being the dialect spoken and how each of the words spoken define "Close Quartering Fighting" in those dialects. To Tuhon Leo Gaje it is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and to Tuhon "Nene" Tortal it is Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas. But each teach the same system that was taught to both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje from the founder of that system being GM Conrado B. Tortal.

Is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia different than Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas? Yes, Just as different as is Tuhon "Nene" Tortal from his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As each translated the knowledge from the founder a little differently. You will see alot of similarity between the two (systems / Tuhons) as well some things will be quite different with emphasis being placed on different things in accordance with what each of the two Tuhons dictate as being most important to them individually. I feel that if you want to get the complete picture of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas alike you need to train under each of the two Tuhons. Not that any one is superior over the other but more so that each walked away from the founder with a different perspective of that system and what it represents.

This has been my understanding of this whole thing since 1996 when it became an international issue. I`m not sure what the official answer or position is currently some 8 years later. Either way I think that anyone would benefit training under either Tuhon Leo T. Gaje or his Uncle Tuhon "Nene" Tortal if one wishes to excell in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia (Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas). Go well guys, "Nubreed" Ben Fajardo.

quote:

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The prime diffrences and similarities between the Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti Tirsia Sirradas systems. By Dave Gould

They both come from Negros and the Tortal family, and have worked extensively with the military(although diffrent branches) and favor the ginunting.

Hello there, I hope that all is well with you. Here`s the deal as I understand it from the mouths of both Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje and Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal concerning their family system. Kali Pekiti-Tirsia was officially founded in 1897 by Grand Master Conrado B. Tortal on the Island of Visayas in the Philippines. It was always classified as a "Close Quartering" fighting system placing alot of attention on footwork and close quarter combative methodology for aggressively taking ones opponent out quickly.

GM Conrado B. Tortal was the uncle of "Nene" Tortal and the Grandfather of Leo T. Gaje. Both learned the system from GM Conrado at an early age and early on the word was that both had inherited Kali Pekiti-Tirsia on the founders passing. For the most part for many years alot of people accused Tuhon "Nene" Tortal of living in the shadow of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As every time that there was a public demonstration of the system it was always Tuhon "Nene" introducing Tuhon Leo to demonstrate and answer questions of everyone concerning the system. All the while Tuhon "Nene" would sit, observe and assist whenever requested by Tuhon Leo Gaje. It was clear that publically Tuhon Leo Gaje was the driving force behind propagating Kali Pekiti-Tirsia to the world.

Not that Tuhon "Nene" Tortal was incapable as he has been given very high compliments by many in the know. Many of those compliments were from my Instructor the late Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite, he always was very impressed with Tuhon "Nene" Tortals` ability to speak with his movements and not with his mouth. PG Sulite would often compliment Tuhon "Nene" on his knife work among other areas of expertise.

There is no way that you could ever accuse Tuhon "Nene" of moving like Tuhon Gaje, or vice-versa. They both translated the knowledge that they were given by GM Conrado differently and chose to demonstrate it somewhat differently according to natural talents that each possessed. Tuhon Leo is very impressive to watch and moves with flamboyant effect while Tuhon "Nene" moves more directly to the point and thereby not getting caught up in the flash factor of sorts. Tuhon "Nene" is by nature a very quiet man but don`t let his silence fool you as when he needs to get serious he is quite capable of devouring his opponent. Whereas some say that Tuhon Gaje has been given "Anting-anting" for the ability to speak. Some would say that he has a silver tongue and I would have to agree with this as when he speaks his words bring to life the definition of what it is that he is trying to convey. But as well Tuhon Leo Gaje can more than back up anything that he says on a field of battle. Although both take somewhat different approaches each is more than capable in their own unique ways.

What does this all have to do with Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas you ask? Well before 1996 I had never heard of this system and even when speaking with Tuhon "Nene" Tortal in Mambukal, Philippines in February of 1996 he would still refer to his family system as Kali Pekiti-Tirsia. I don`t want to get into the politics of things so I will just say that a few months later in the summer of 1996 an issue over money came up and because of it both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and Tuhon Leo T. Gaje were pushed apart from one another and in anger each went their own way.

Shortly after this I began hearing for the first time of Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and it envoked alot of accusations to fly between the two Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhons which inevitably wedged a greater division between the two. Basically Tuhon "Nene" Tortal started teaching Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and at that time when asked what it was he stated that it was the same system that was founded and taught to him by GM Conrado B. Tortal (Kali Pekiti-Tirsia) but as it was called from a different dialect in his area of Visayas.

So I walked away from all of this as Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas being not a different system than that of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia but actually the two were one in the same with the only difference being the dialect spoken and how each of the words spoken define "Close Quartering Fighting" in those dialects. To Tuhon Leo Gaje it is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and to Tuhon "Nene" Tortal it is Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas. But each teach the same system that was taught to both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje from the founder of that system being GM Conrado B. Tortal.

Is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia different than Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas? Yes, Just as different as is Tuhon "Nene" Tortal from his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As each translated the knowledge from the founder a little differently. You will see alot of similarity between the two (systems / Tuhons) as well some things will be quite different with emphasis being placed on different things in accordance with what each of the two Tuhons dictate as being most important to them individually. I feel that if you want to get the complete picture of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas alike you need to train under each of the two Tuhons. Not that any one is superior over the other but more so that each walked away from the founder with a different perspective of that system and what it represents.

This has been my understanding of this whole thing since 1996 when it became an international issue. I`m not sure what the official answer or position is currently some 8 years later. Either way I think that anyone would benefit training under either Tuhon Leo T. Gaje or his Uncle Tuhon "Nene" Tortal if one wishes to excell in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia (Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas). Go well guys, "Nubreed" Ben Fajardo.

Train the way you fight and fight the way you train!

---

Ron Kosakowski
Practical Self Defense Training Center
847 Hamilton Ave. (RT 69)
Waterbury, CT 06706
203-596-9073
info@psdtc.com
http://www.psdtc.com

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