Posted - 01/27/2010 : 11:38:31
I found this to be interesting indeed! The spear (ch'iang/qiang) is as ancient as China. Not only is it considered to be the oldest military weapon in China, the spear was originally developed as a horse soldier's weapon. Before 400 B.C., foot soldiers used either a nine foot spear or an eighteen foot spear. These spears combined a thrusting point with a hooking or slicing blade.
As a footnote, there are other types of spears-snake-head pattern spear, single hook spear (hooking fish spear), and double hook spear (hooking fish spear). (This particular topic will be discussed in a later article on Chinese weaponry.)
Unlike the spear that is used in other parts of the world, the Chinese spear was never meant to be thrown. Instead, a specialized set of techniques was developed that strongly resembled the single-headed staff techniques. Staffs of various lengths derived spillover value from some of the spear tactics, although they have complete systems of their own.
"When you use the spear you must judge where you are going to hit and focus your eyes on the target. Focus your eyes on your opponent's head, torso, or foot. When the spear is thrust, you should coordinate the weapon with your mind, hands, and feet. Your spear should shoot like a dragon rising from the sea. The motion must be able to surround the opponent body. With that action, you will be able to hit him." Anyone have thoughts on that or anything to add to this?
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 10:15:18
Imagine the Shish Kebab you could make with this thing. LOL
I could only imagine that it would have been extremely difficult to follow and thrust into an opponent that could evade quickly to either side of the point due to the length of the spear.
quote: Imagine the Shish Kebab you could make with this thing. LOL
I could only imagine that it would have been extremely difficult to follow and thrust into an opponent that could evade quickly to either side of the point due to the length of the spear.
Paul
Yes, I am hoping Ken or Andy or anyone knowledgeable on this weapon could explain this thing better. It certainly sounds fascinating but impractical. Though, is it exists I am sure it had its use. Technology was how wars were won always even to this day.
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:28:33
actually the long staff in Wing Chun is supposed to be 9-12 feet long!
The techniques are 90% done with the single long end, much like a spear. Most of the techniques are infact derived from spear techniques.
If you could imagine a front line of troops all carrying this type of weapon, against swordsmen, horsemen, and any type of foot infantry you can imagine. The guy with the longer weapon can often win a fight based on range.
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:41:44
Sparring staff to staff is one thing but my guess is that there is a swordsman standing next to him ready to take on the guys that move inside staff range. There is not much to do with such a long weapon inside. There just has to be back up.
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 16:57:50
its a long range weapon for sure. its weakness is the close range.
In The traditional Wing Chun style we call the pole. "luk dim boon gwan"
which means 6 and 1/2 point pole. the half point is using the other end for when people get in close. like a punyo strike. its a last resort.
The staff and sword are perfect companions. in a formal line up, there would most certainly need to be swordsmen in between them to pick up what ever the poles/spears dont catch.
Dropping the stick up and down, is probably the most difficult to defend against. the drop stick on the feet of the incoming attacker makes it nearly impossible for a short range weapon to get closer. if of course the poleman is good at keeping his spear on target, and fast to react, aka on offense the whole time.
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 18:44:48
It will be interesting to see a Filipino Spear. Chinese spears a flexibly mounted on waxwood staves and thus have the ability to bend over shields to strike an opponent while unaware. Shorter spears are mounted on stout hardwoods, and while they can be thrown, their primary value is as a double-edged dagger on the end of a pole for reach to not only the vital organs as targets, but to critical junctures of blood vessels and nerves, or to strategically cut tendons and major muscle groups. In Chinese martial arts (Gong Ka) the spear is near the top of all weapons. It was felt that it took 100 days to master the broadsword, 1000 days for the spear, and 10,000 days to master the double-edged sword, the emperor of all Chinese weapons...
Posted - 01/28/2010 : 19:41:09
Spear is an important part of Chen-style Tai Chi weapons training (also the Guan Tao, which is more like a halberd). I haven't gotten that far into it; most of what I know is theoretical.
Andy is correct in noting that as one part of a well-trained military unit the spear is quite scary; anyone interested should look into the Phalanx units of the ancient world (perfected by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great). Their weakness, especially in close formation, is on the inside, that's why they were eventually surplanted by the Roman Legionaire's short sword. The Romans would use a series of flank attacks to attack a phalanx. The only way the unit could re-face the enemy was for every soldier to lift their spears straight upwards in unison, turn in unison and come down together in the same direction. Even a well-experienced unit would eventually find itself "tangled" in each other's spears; then the Romans would hack them up.
Back to China: In northern China the main concern was defending against barbarians on horse-back, like the Mongols. That's why they developed Spears with blades and hooks. It was like bringing the sword up to the riders level without letting him get close enough to use the horses massive weight against you. The hook could be used under a horse to snag and sever a leg; once the rider was on the ground, he was no match for the Chinese footmen (that's when the sword would come out). The blade makes for very different technique than just a regular thrusting weapon, since if you thrust and miss but still end up to the side of the target a slight turn could be turned into a cut. Even if the opponent made contact with the shaft, by retreating and pulling back the spear you could still make a nasty cut. The Chinese also like adding bright red tassels to the shaft of the spear. The bright red color would distract the eye and pull your awareness a little away from the business-end, which could then get you.
This is a thrust and pull-back to cut technique being done by Wang Hai Jun:
quote: It will be interesting to see a Filipino Spear. Chinese spears a flexibly mounted on waxwood staves and thus have the ability to bend over shields to strike an opponent while unaware. Shorter spears are mounted on stout hardwoods, and while they can be thrown, their primary value is as a double-edged dagger on the end of a pole for reach to not only the vital organs as targets, but to critical junctures of blood vessels and nerves, or to strategically cut tendons and major muscle groups. In Chinese martial arts (Gong Ka) the spear is near the top of all weapons. It was felt that it took 100 days to master the broadsword, 1000 days for the spear, and 10,000 days to master the double-edged sword, the emperor of all Chinese weapons...
The amount of hours to master a weapon definately makes sense. There is so much footwork to gain the reflexes for in multi-man attacks. The Filipino spears or the staffs are only 4 ft or 5 ft long. I think some of the Moro spears are up to 7 ft long because the spear head alone can be a foot and a half long on some. That leaves quite a bit of room for cutting. I do not know how to use the Chinese MA weapons though they certainly look cool and I would not mind collecting some real ones.
quote: Spear is an important part of Chen-style Tai Chi weapons training (also the Guan Tao, which is more like a halberd). I haven't gotten that far into it; most of what I know is theoretical.
Andy is correct in noting that as one part of a well-trained military unit the spear is quite scary; anyone interested should look into the Phalanx units of the ancient world (perfected by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great). Their weakness, especially in close formation, is on the inside, that's why they were eventually surplanted by the Roman Legionaire's short sword. The Romans would use a series of flank attacks to attack a phalanx. The only way the unit could re-face the enemy was for every soldier to lift their spears straight upwards in unison, turn in unison and come down together in the same direction. Even a well-experienced unit would eventually find itself "tangled" in each other's spears; then the Romans would hack them up.
Back to China: In northern China the main concern was defending against barbarians on horse-back, like the Mongols. That's why they developed Spears with blades and hooks. It was like bringing the sword up to the riders level without letting him get close enough to use the horses massive weight against you. The hook could be used under a horse to snag and sever a leg; once the rider was on the ground, he was no match for the Chinese footmen (that's when the sword would come out). The blade makes for very different technique than just a regular thrusting weapon, since if you thrust and miss but still end up to the side of the target a slight turn could be turned into a cut. Even if the opponent made contact with the shaft, by retreating and pulling back the spear you could still make a nasty cut. The Chinese also like adding bright red tassels to the shaft of the spear. The bright red color would distract the eye and pull your awareness a little away from the business-end, which could then get you.
This is a thrust and pull-back to cut technique being done by Wang Hai Jun:
-K
Edited by - Tai Chi Ken on 01/28/2010 19:48:08
It seems like most of the weapons mentioned here are shorter than the title of this thread speaks of. I can't imagine an 18 footer unless it is planted and used against horses. If it is used in other fighting ways, I could only imagine the strength these soldiers had to have to manipulate such a weapon.
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 08:36:25
The Japanese Samurai had an Odachi sword which ranged from lengths of 6ft to 9ft long.
The Dragon Pole can be up to 18ft. It was derived from poles used by chinese raft/river boats that used long poles to move boats, by placing the pole in the water against the bottom, and pushing the raft forward. It was used to defend boats against attacks, and prevent boats getting close etc.
quote: The Japanese Samurai had an Odachi sword which ranged from lengths of 6ft to 9ft long.
The Dragon Pole can be up to 18ft. It was derived from poles used by chinese raft/river boats that used long poles to move boats, by placing the pole in the water against the bottom, and pushing the raft forward. It was used to defend boats against attacks, and prevent boats getting close etc.
Of course I was looking around to find various Chinese staffs and only found this piece of info I put in originally. I can't seem to find more. I have worked with the Wing Chun Dragon Pole many years ago. It was 12 feet long. Not really as heavy as you would think. Its not like the Kuntao 4 ft staff or Kali's 5 footer as far as manuevering goes. The Kuntao staff can be used in a close range, closer than most staffs i have worked with in the past.
As far back as 3000 B.C., the staff and the long pole were used in hunting as well as in battle. The staff is a stick between five and six feet in length, both ends of the same diameter. The long pole can be as long as 13 feet, with one end tapered. These weapons were easy to construct and were very popular in ancient days.
With the discovery of bronze and iron, the staff and long pole were modified into weapons such as spears, Kwan Dao (big choppers), and various versions of the long stick with metal casting at the end.
The use of the staff and long pole was also popular among the Shaolin monks during the early Sung Dynasty (A.D. 960-1279). During that time the monks were involved in helping the first emperor, Sung, establish his kingdom. The staff and long pole were used extensively by the monks, who, because of their religion, did not like sharp edged weapons that would inflict undue injury to their enemies.
Even after the Sung Dynasty, the Shaolin monks continued to favour the use of the staff and long pole. In the Manchu Dynasty (1644-1911), the monks used these weapons to defend themselves from the Manchu Government's siege on the Shaolin Temple.
There were many forms of staff and long pole in the Shaolin style, but the most effective was the "Look Dim Boon Grun" ie. Six-and-a-half-Strike Dragon Pole, originated by Grandmaster Gee Sin.
According to Chinese legend, Grandmaster Gee Sin was also one of the five Grandmasters who developed the Wing Chun style. But Yim Wing Chun, who became the only heir to the Wing Chun style, and after whom it was named, did not learn the dragon pole as part of her Wing Chun training. She completed her training with Grandmaster Ng Mui, having learned only the empty-hand techniques and the butterfly swords which she passed on to her husband Leung Bok Cho.
The Dragon Pole descended from Grandmaster Gee Sin through three generations of his disciples to Wong Wah Bo, and was reunited with the Wing Chun style by another twist of fate.
Yim Wing Chun's husband, Leung Bok Cho, in searching for someone to whom he could pass on the Wing Chun system chose on of his nephews. Coincidentally, this also turned out to be Wong Wah Bo, the third generation heir to the dragon pole techniques of Grandmaster Gee Sin.
Wong Wah Bo was a very popular opera star on a floating opera barge called The Red Boat. One day, Leung Bok Cho went to the Red Boat to see the opera. Leung and Wong got together after the show, and came to the agreement that they would have a friendly martial arts contest. If Leung could defeat Wong easily, then Wong would undertake to learn the Wing Chun system.
The two confronted each other on the stage of The Red Boat. Wong was armed with a 12 foot dragon pole and Leung had a pair of butterfly swords each measuring 14 inches. Since Wong considered himself as having the advantage, he asked Leung to attack first. Leung brandished the pair of butterfly swords to begin his attack. Wong was very cautious in defending because the swords were sharp and Leung's technique was very tight and swift. Though he fought with all his might, Wong found it very difficult to fend off Leung's attack. He was forced to retreat to the edge of the stage. Now, Wong could not use the most deadly technique of the Six-and-a-Half-Strike Dragon Pole to deal with the situation. When Leung aimed a double slash with both swords at Wong's head, Wong raised his pole in a technique called Bon Grun - (Wing block) to neutralize the assault, and followed up with a lower jab to Leung's leg. This was one of the most efficient dragon pole techniques in the Six-and-a-Half-Strike Dragon Pole because block and counterattack were almost simultaneous. Wong used it quickly and thought this would surely bring a speedy victory. Nevertheless, quite unexpectedly, Wong felt something cold touch his hand. He looked down and found the sharp edge of a butterfly sword resting on his wrist. He had no alternative. He dropped the dragon pole and admitted defeat. Wong fell to his knees and begged to be Leung's student so that he could learn the Wing Chun system.
From that brief encounter Leung realized that he had chosen well and that Wong had the potential of becoming the best. After Wong mastered Wing Chun, he improved the Six-and-a-Half-Strike Dragon Pole by combining it with Wing Chun and making its techniques much more effective.
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 12:34:32
I found some info on the spear on wikipedia. It refers specifically to the Macedonians, but I'm sure it applies to the Chinese use of this weapon too. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa : "The sarissa, made of tough and resilient cornel wood, was very heavy for a spear, weighing approximately 12 pounds for a 15 foot sarissa and approximately 14.5 pounds for a 18 foot sarissa. It had a short iron head shaped like a leaf and a bronze shoe (also known as a butt-spike) that would allow it to be anchored to the ground to stop charges by enemy soldiers. The bronze shoe also served to balance out the spear, making it easier for soldiers to wield. The sheer bulk and size of the spear required the soldiers to wield the spear with both hands, allowing them to carry only a 24 inch shield suspended from the neck to cover the left shoulder. Its great length—up to eighteen feet in two lengths joined by a central bronze tube—was an asset against hoplites and other soldiers bearing shorter weapons, because they had to get past the sarissas to engage the phalangites. However, outside the tight formation of the Phalanx the sarissa would have been almost useless as a weapon and a hindrance on the march. Complicated training ensured that the phalanx wielded their sarissas in unison, swinging them vertically to wheel about, then lowering them to the horizontal. The uniform swish of the sarissas daunted the Illyrian hill tribesmen on whom the young Alexander exerted his early sorties. The tight formation of the phalanx created a "wall of pikes", and the pike was so long that there were fully five rows of them projecting in front of the front rank of men—even if an enemy got past the first row, there were still four more to stop him. The back rows bore their pikes angled upwards in readiness, which served the additional purpose of deflecting incoming arrows. The Macedonian phalanx was considered all but invulnerable from the front, except against another such phalanx; the only way it was ever generally defeated was by breaking its formation or outflanking it."
To see these warriors in action, watch Oliver Stone's Alexander.
quote: I found some info on the spear on wikipedia. It refers specifically to the Macedonians, but I'm sure it applies to the Chinese use of this weapon too. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa : "The sarissa, made of tough and resilient cornel wood, was very heavy for a spear, weighing approximately 12 pounds for a 15 foot sarissa and approximately 14.5 pounds for a 18 foot sarissa. It had a short iron head shaped like a leaf and a bronze shoe (also known as a butt-spike) that would allow it to be anchored to the ground to stop charges by enemy soldiers. The bronze shoe also served to balance out the spear, making it easier for soldiers to wield. The sheer bulk and size of the spear required the soldiers to wield the spear with both hands, allowing them to carry only a 24 inch shield suspended from the neck to cover the left shoulder. Its great length—up to eighteen feet in two lengths joined by a central bronze tube—was an asset against hoplites and other soldiers bearing shorter weapons, because they had to get past the sarissas to engage the phalangites. However, outside the tight formation of the Phalanx the sarissa would have been almost useless as a weapon and a hindrance on the march. Complicated training ensured that the phalanx wielded their sarissas in unison, swinging them vertically to wheel about, then lowering them to the horizontal. The uniform swish of the sarissas daunted the Illyrian hill tribesmen on whom the young Alexander exerted his early sorties. The tight formation of the phalanx created a "wall of pikes", and the pike was so long that there were fully five rows of them projecting in front of the front rank of men—even if an enemy got past the first row, there were still four more to stop him. The back rows bore their pikes angled upwards in readiness, which served the additional purpose of deflecting incoming arrows. The Macedonian phalanx was considered all but invulnerable from the front, except against another such phalanx; the only way it was ever generally defeated was by breaking its formation or outflanking it."
To see these warriors in action, watch Oliver Stone's Alexander.
-K
Yes, this makes more sense. My guess is the Chinese used it in a similar way. The Dragon Pole was used as a fighting tool. The 18 footer would have to be more of a "stopper" I would think.
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 15:31:43
Was the spear in Chinese martial arts a military weapon used in mass formations, or a personal weapon used in a more individualistic style of combat?
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 15:52:41
The European equivalent was the pike, and it was used to great effect on the battlefield until the development of reliable muskets.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
18 foot spear?
Posted - 01/27/2010 : 11:38:31
